Mideast crisis - War of Extremists

[kadabba]

Let's look at this first:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060717/pl_afp/mideastconflictlebanon_060717204728

This fucking idiot is saying : "there was no moral equivalence between the civilian casualties from the Israeli raids in Lebanon and those killed in Israel from malicious terrorist acts"
What kind of the fucking logic is that, if we kill you we are defending ourselves, if you kill us you are terrorist!!!

The entire situation smells so bad. Israel retaliation against the hostage taking of Hezbollah was too far. Everyone knows Iran is supporting Hezbollah, is this related to the nuclear programs of Iran? Is it a nasty plan by Iranian gov?

This guy believes so: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301670.html?sub=AR

[kadabba]

Hopeless pacifists in Israel

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

[kadabba]

Surely you are joking Mr. Annan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5190472.stm

[DBfan187]

rock on Israel!


Israel is just wiating in the dark, and when the time comes. They'll dismantle all of the middleeast.

[kadabba]

They'll dismantle all of the middleeast.

This time I don't think so. I think they just enter a trap, just wait and see. This time the hero would be someone very ugly.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5192990.stm

Everytime these fuckers have problems they just starts a fire, remember Mohammad cartoons.

[DBfan187]

6 day wars, Yom Kippur War Redeux.

Israel is the most advanced nation in that region. They will win.


Not to mention, we got their back;)

[kadabba]

Israel is the most advanced nation in that region. They will win.

No doubt about the first part, but what do they win? this time the war is not with one specific country, it is with an armed group inside a country. How are they going to eliminate that? I think their attack was very idiotic. It is simply an extension to recent US policies.

the world has been changed from 60s and 70s.

[kadabba]

Diplomacy.

They need to put the fucking government of Iran and Syria in the corner, they need to somehow get the vote of Russia and China in the security council. That is the way.

The war just makes these governments more powerful.

[mindido]

kadabba,

If you get a chance, pick up the July 24 issue of Time. They have several pretty good articles on what appears to be happening over there. They also had several quotes that I thought were pretty interesting:

"Everybody sees a difficulty in the question of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf, and nothing can bridge it... We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs."

David Ben-Gurion
June 1919

I'll get to the others a bit later. Also kadabba, I'm a bit confused as to your stand on this situation. If I remember correctly, you are an ex-pat Iranian. I do "believe" that Iran is probably behind this to a point (maybe a very big point) but I, like most other people, really don't know what to do about this. Other than maybe figuring out a way to turn back the clock several times to try and redo history.

[kadabba]

If you get a chance, pick up the July 24 issue of Time.

I will get it for sure.

Here is my position:

I believe Israel has right to live in that rigion, and has the right to hold all the lands up to 1967. However, I am affraid that this time this war was a trap by Iran and Syria, and Israel should have avoided it.

[kadabba]

"Everybody sees a difficulty in the question of relations between Arabs and Jews. But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf, and nothing can bridge it... We, as a nation, want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs."


I am not agree with that, on 1939 we had WWII to bring some new terminology into our vocabulary, and that is "tolerance".

That gulf that Ben-Gurion talks about can be bridged by new technolgoy and Internet, it just needs some time.

But one thing is true, most of the countries in the world are controlling by the governments that have 1919 politics. And US government is still living in the crusaders era!

[mindido]

Here is my position:

I believe Israel has right to live in that rigion, and has the right to hold all the lands up to 1967.

I would agree with that. No problem.

However, I am affraid that this time this war was a trap by Iran and Syria, and Israel should have avoided it.

A trap? Maybe. A way for Iran to divert attention for awhile? Almost undoubtedly. But I don't see that Israel had a lot of choice in going after Hezbollah when their soldiers were taken. I guess my "belief" is that Israel did what they had to. I mean, think about this. Israel is surrounded by people that want to destroy them. Thus, every Israeli is, was, or will be, in the military. No ifs, ands or buts.

And Israel also has (from what everyone says) the best intelligence service in the world. So it seems unlikely they would have been drawn into something blindly.

I do "believe" that Islamic fundamentalism is probably the major threat to world stability. Thus, undoubtedly, Iran (especially) and Syria have their hands in this. I really don't see a way for Israel to have avoided this.

I am not agree with that, on 1939 we had WWII to bring some new terminology into our vocabulary, and that is "tolerance".

That gulf that Ben-Gurion talks about can be bridged by new technolgoy and Internet, it just needs some time.

I really wish you were correct here. But history and human nature strongly suggest that humans have not progressed far enough (other than technologically) for that to be true. Maybe someday, but not today. We still make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over.

But one thing is true, most of the countries in the world are controlling by the governments that have 1919 politics. And US government is still living in the crusaders era!

I would agree with that whole heartedly. And the current US federal government are the lead crusaders. Sad, really sad.

[kadabba]

Maybe it is not a trap, maybe I am wrong on this point, because you are right the Israeli inteligent service are smarter than that to fall in a trap by Iran.


I really wish you were correct here. But history and human nature strongly suggest that humans have not progressed far enough (other than technologically) for that to be true. Maybe someday, but not today. We still make the same stupid mistakes over and over and over.

I am wondering if someone would have asked Ben-Gurion about gay marriage what would be the answer?

See, Internet is a very strange phenomena and it is evolving without any plan, it has been just two decades but without any doubt it has the most cultural affect among different technologies. See the World is Flat by Thomas Friedman for that matter.

The problem is Israel sees most of the Arabs as someone who has a extreme idea about Israel termination. The vice-versa also stands true. This is simply because they don't know each other, and they haven't even seen each other when they talk about killing someone is just an imagination in the mind, and they really don't know what they are talking about. I want you to look at these pictures closely, these are one the most frightening pictures that I have ever seen in my life.

http://img129.imagevenue.com/loc482/th_48419_childAbuseAndHate_482lo.jpg (http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=48419_childAbuseAndHate_482lo.jpg)

http://img130.imagevenue.com/loc535/th_48429_childAbuseAndHate2_535lo.jpg (http://img130.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=48429_childAbuseAndHate2_535lo.jpg)

These are several Israeli kids that are signing some rockets, do you think they really mean it? do you think they really want to kill Arab children by these guns.

as you mentioned earlier I lived in Iran and I didn't know anything about Israel until I came out of the country. Then I become friend with an Israeli, i was very surperised that I can have fun with this guy, he was very surprised that we are listennning to the same music and watching the same movies.

Maybe I am very optimistic but one fiber optic and one free computer with high access Internet to Palestinians will solve most of the Israel problems. Just set the home page to forum.exp0sed.com and everything else will be set automatically.

I will write more on this later.

[mindido]

I am wondering if someone would have asked Ben-Gurion about gay marriage what would be the answer?

I don't really know but I'm sure it wouldn't be positive.

See, Internet is a very strange phenomena and it is evolving without any plan, it has been just two decades but without any doubt it has the most cultural affect among different technologies. See the World is Flat by Thomas Friedman for that matter.

I do agree that the internet has the ability of opening peoples eyes and minds to new possibilities. And, on this, I agree with Friedman. The problem is that there are people out there (the Taliban for an example) whom, if it were up to them, there would be no internet, or much of anything else. There would be nothing but slavish adherance to some guys idea of what "god" wants.

The problem is Israel sees most of the Arabs as someone who has a extreme idea about Israel termination. The vice-versa also stands true. This is simply because they don't know each other, and they haven't even seen each other when they talk about killing someone is just an imagination in the mind, and they really don't know what they are talking about. I want you to look at these pictures closely, these are one the most frightening pictures that I have ever seen in my life.

http://img129.imagevenue.com/loc482/th_48419_childAbuseAndHate_482lo.jpg (http://img129.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=48419_childAbuseAndHate_482lo.jpg)

http://img130.imagevenue.com/loc535/th_48429_childAbuseAndHate2_535lo.jpg (http://img130.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=48429_childAbuseAndHate2_535lo.jpg)

These are several Israeli kids that are signing some rockets, do you think they really mean it? do you think they really want to kill Arab children by these guns.

I haven't seen these pictures before, but I've seem many that are similar. There are many of middle eastern kids at madrassas or Palestinian kids looking up to suicide bombers. They are all very troubling photos.

Maybe I am very optimistic but one fiber optic and one free computer with high access Internet to Palestinians will solve most of the Israel problems. Just set the home page to forum.exp0sed.com and everything else will be set automatically.

I would definitely agree with that.

[kadabba]

I haven't seen these pictures before, but I've seem many that are similar. There are many of middle eastern kids at madrassas or Palestinian kids looking up to suicide bombers.

Since I was sure you have seen those pictures before I didn't post any.

Steven Spielberg gave 30 cameras to 30 Israeli kid and also did the same thing with 30 Palestinians kids. He asked them to videotape their daily life and then exchange it with each other.

I am pretty sure with this he changed the point of view of at least 60 families. By spending one week of military expenses of US in just Iraq, you can give every Israeli and every Palestinian a camera to to do the same thing.

[mindido]

Steven Spielberg gave 30 cameras to 30 Israeli kid and also did the same thing with 30 Palestinians kids. He asked them to videotape their daily life and then exchange it with each other.

Do you have a link for that? I'd like to check that out.

By spending one week of military expenses of US in just Iraq, you can give every Israeli and every Palestinian a camera to to do the same thing.

kadabba,

Do you have any idea of the percentage of people in various countries of the Middle East that actually have access to the internet? The idea of giving everyone a camera is interesting, I'm just not sure how much good it would do.

And GW give up his military spending in Iraq??? Never happen. I now see that the neocons are basically calling him a pussy for not helping Israel by invading Iran and Syria. For Bill Crystal and his ilk, nothing short of total war on virtually everyone will do. Sad, really sad.

[kadabba]

Do you have a link for that? I'd like to check that out.

It was 125 cameras to each kid on each side! here is the link check the buttom of the page.
http://www.mcnblogs.com/mcindie/archives/2005/12/shhhhaits_a_sec.html

Do you have any idea of the percentage of people in various countries of the Middle East that actually have access to the internet?

Check this. Make sure open it in IE, it didn't work on my firefox.
http://tools.google.com/gapminder/#ssn=5$majorMode=chart$ds;path=data;type=swf$is;sh i=t;ly=2003;lb=f;il=t;fs=11;al=30;stl=t;st=t;nsl=t ;se=t$ts;sp=6;ti=2004$inc_c;gid=1004;by=grp$inc_s; iid=SP%2EPOP%2ETOTL;by=ind$inc_x;iid=NY%2EGDP%2EPC AP%2EPP%2EKD;by=ind$inc_y;iid=IT%2ENET%2EUSER%2EP3 ;by=ind$map_x;scale=log;dataMin=466;dataMax=64299; sma=497;smi=55$map_y;scale=log;dataMin=0;dataMax=7 88;sma=53;smi=387$map_s;scale=sqrt;dataMin=15000;d ataMax=1296157000;sma=50;smi=5$inds=

you can also check other stuff as well through:

http://tools.google.com/gapminder/#

The idea of giving everyone a camera is interesting, I'm just not sure how much good it would do.

That's just an example, i know it is not practical, I just meant if it was possible to show them each others life, the problem would have been solved. But how? that's the question.

[kadabba]

Min,

if you haven't seen this last night, if you have time watch it, it is very interesting:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3560726038059443188&q=tvshow%3ACharlie_Rose

[mindido]

kadabba,

Finally had some time to watch the Charlie Rose segment. It seems they were saying the same things as we've pretty much discussed. But the guy certainly seemed to understand Iran pretty well.