Religious Right, right?

mindido said:

Mox,

I think maybe you miss the point. Normally I would agree with you about these type of things but if you are correct in this argument, why was this particular square used when one would expect a normal square to be used, i.e., a square of any dimension (4x4, 5x5, 8x8, etc.) with the numbers used normally (the one at the top left, seven on second row left, etc.). Why was this square used above all others?

Also, a bit off the point but I found this today:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/arts_mic...HIAnACs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2bm5xNHVjBHNlYwNtcA--

More lost secret knowledge?

Click to expand...

Who says a square of 6x6 isn't normal? Also why shouldn't it go as it does? Think you are wanting to see things a little deeper than they are Min

I'll read the Michelangelo article in a bit after i've watched my tv programme!

Mox,

"Also why shouldn't it go as it does?"

But why use this square when a "normal" one would serve the same purpose more than adequately? Most people in the western world would expect numbering left to right and not a serpentine array. I know the first time I saw this, before I had heard the story, I wondered why use such a thing. It was only after I learned the story that it made any sense.

I know nothing of surveying.

But looking at the township grid i would say that it is serpentine for practical as opposed to mathematical reasons. When it was first composed it was done by foot, without airial coverage right? So if done by foot the best way would surely be by going through the six sections and then turning on itself in a serpentine manner thus to keep one's positioning? This could be absolute garbage, :nuts: but hey i'm trying to offer an explanation with my ignorance of surveying.

Do we have a surveyor on board?

"Gory gory Transylvania,
Where werewolves and bats will always maim ya
The murky moors will likely claim ya
As we go stumbling throooooooough!"
Ok, I'm done lol.

Sorry about not getting to this earlier but my ISP is having real problems today. I get on and then I'm off. Not sure how long this will last.

Mox,

I'm a surveyor (its one of my jobs) and know a bit about its history. The following was the general procedure used by the original surveyors of the public lands in the US.

After the lands had finally been ripped off from the Indians (OK, I just had to get some type of political jab in here) two teams of three surveyors was sent into the new lands. They would designate a point of beginning (usually trying to make that at a convenient intersection of latitude and longitude and near the center of the southern portion of the state) and then start the process of laying out the townships. They would usually start by going 6 miles north, then 6 miles west, then 6 miles south then 6 miles east back to the point of beginning. At each corner they would pile up a bunch of rocks or use whatever they had to mark the corner. Once the township was done another team of surveyors would come in to lay out the Sections (and they generally worked the same way).

If you follow me so far, you can see that a team could easily do 2 to 4 townships from the first point of beginning (but this would be a rare case as all of the teams I've studied so far worked from south to north). So eventually the team would have to pack up and go to one of their previous corners and start again.

As far as I've studied, there was no directive from Washington about which way to go once the surveyors arrived at a given location. This was usually determined by the team themselves and would depend on how they felt that day, how difficult the terrain was they were going to have to cover and if there were any hostiles in the area (many survey teams were killed and others had to be guarded by federal troops).

For a more graphical representation, if you are familiar with either the states of Ohio or Wisconsin (the two states I've studied the most), the surveyors there started at the south end of each and then worked their way east (one team) and west (another team) laying out the first set of townships, then gradually worked their ways north.

To answer your specific question:

"it is serpentine for practical as opposed to mathemantical reasons.",

you are partially correct in that the townships at the southern borders were laid out first (east to west and then north to south). But to follow the logic, wouldn't the number 1 be in the bottom right corner?

Here are a couple of sites that may make more sense than I:

http://geology.isu.edu/geostac/Field_Exercise/topomaps/plss.htm

http://www.geography.wisc.edu/sco/plss/index.php

http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/forestry/Private/PLSSTut/plsstut1.htm

I hope that makes things a bit clearer.

I actually understood all of that! Yeay, i'm not retarded after all.

"you are partially correct in that the townships at the southern borders were laid out first (east to west and then north to south). But to follow the logic, wouldn't the number 1 be in the bottom right corner?"

You're obviously in a better position to answer being a surveyor and knowing the history. All i can say is that perhaps its a surveying quirk, whose reasoning is lost to time?

Mox,

"All i can say is that perhaps its a surveying quirk, whose reasoning is lost to time?"

Possibly. But being as the story came from a prof. in Civil Engineering who taught me most everything I know about the subject, I have to give it some credence.

Anyway, if the story is true (and I'm not saying it is) it would be a kick in the pants to the religious right.

mindido said:

Mox, Anyway, if the story is true (and I'm not saying it is) it would be a kick in the pants to the religious right.

Click to expand...

Why?

Duke,

Why? 666. The devils number. Embedded into all of the land (outside the 13 colonies and a few other places) descriptions in the US for as long as the US lasts. Does this really matter? No, not to me and most other people. But given how idiotic many members of the religious right are, if they knew about it, you know they would want to get rid of it and would create a big fuss about it.

Does that make sense?

I don't think its really that big of a deal personally. So what if the numbers add up to something. Thats about equal to the claim that Nostradamus predicted 9/11

the first Amendment to the US Constitution guarrantees the freedom of religion... it guarrantees that there will be no government sponsored religion, and it guarrantees that followers of a religion shall be free to practice it... iceberg--much to your dismay, and the horror of others like you, this INCLUDES CHRISTIANITY!!!!! the religion of the founders doesnt matter... what matters is that we have freedom of religion, and freedom from government sponsored or mandated religion...

cableguy said:

the first Amendment to the US Constitution guarrantees the freedom of religion... it guarrantees that there will be no government sponsored religion, and it guarrantees that followers of a religion shall be free to practice it... iceberg--much to your dismay, and the horror of others like you, this INCLUDES CHRISTIANITY!!!!! the religion of the founders doesnt matter... what matters is that we have freedom of religion, and freedom from government sponsored or mandated religion...

Click to expand...

And freedom from religion? Be it the overtly Christian one that perverts all of American political institutions, and as a consequence constructs the worldview of American policy towards both its own citizens (providing they are god-fearers, because hey they all worship the same god right) and citizens of other nations.

moxdevil said:

And freedom from religion?

Click to expand...

Just close your eyes and ears.

Texan said:

Just close your eyes and ears.

Click to expand...

Ah yes see no evil, hear no evil.

Tex,

"Just close your eyes and ears."

I wish it was that simple, but the religious right continues to intrude themselves in areas they have no business. Religion in science class? A court system very friendly to them? Politicians in their back pocket? etc., etc.

I don't have a problem with people being religious as long as they keep it to themselves. What they're doing today is far from that. Just listen to Robertson some time, he wants it all.

mindido said:

Tex,

"Just close your eyes and ears."

I wish it was that simple, but the religious right continues to intrude themselves in areas they have no business. Religion in science class? A court system very friendly to them? Politicians in their back pocket? etc., etc.

Click to expand...

Religion has no place in science.

Why is it wrong for a court to think that the killing of an unborn baby is wrong?

What politicians?

mindido said:

I don't have a problem with people being religious as long as they keep it to themselves. What they're doing today is far from that.

Click to expand...

Now that is tolerance.

Tex,

"Religion has no place in science."

I agree completely. But school districts across the country are having creationism (or whatever they're calling it nowadays) forced down their throats.

"Why is it wrong for a court to think that the killing of an unborn baby is wrong?"

Oh boy, I'm not opening that hornets nest in this thread. Lets just say I disagree.

"What politicians?"

G.W, Tom Delay, Bill Fritsch, etc. etc.

"Now that is tolerance."

I don't understand. What is intolerant in that statement?

Mox,

Hit it right on the head! Especially liked the second cartoon.

if anyone can come up with a case of religion being rammed down ANYONES throat by the federal government, i am all ears...

creationism is now referred to as "intelligent design." nowhere that i am aware of teaches this to the complete exclusion of evolution... since both have questions that cannot be answered absolutely, both have a place in the discussion of how things came to be... the argument is for the inclusion of creationism as a theory, not for the elimination of evolutionary theory...