Obama/McCain

Putting aside the 'historical' rhetoric and general Obama love-in, what will significantly change in a country run by corporations and specific vested interest groups? After he's catered to their needs there may be some goodies left for everybody else. Still, post Bush has to be an improvement.

Tex,

Texan said:

Lets look at this in general terms assuming earnings are based on AGI....

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You're math looks good so I have no problem with that. The point is though that its currently too early to tell what he's going to do about the economy. I did see him today say that it will be his #1 priority. If he's to do this correctly, he's going to have to make some spending cuts (remember those?, the Republicans apparently forgot what they were) and, my guess is, that Iraq is going to be one of them. $10 billion per month is a pretty good savings. That will, of course, be offset (by some amount) by an increase in spending in Afghanistan. Again, its too early to tell.

A good indicator of where he's going will be his nominee for Treasury Secretary. Keynesian or Friedmanite? We'll know a lot from that nomination alone.

On a positive note I am glad that just 40+ years removed from the Civil Rights Movement this county has elected a person of color the Office of President. I just wish it wasn't him.

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It was quite a night. A night I never thought I'd see. But I do think (or at least hope) that he's the right person for the job at this time. He seems to be very intelligent, thoughtful and cool under pressure. That seems to be a valuable combination at this time in history.

and Mox (glad to see you pop in once in a while),

...what will significantly change in a country run by corporations and specific vested interest groups? After he's catered to their needs there may be some goodies left for everybody else. Still, post Bush has to be an improvement.

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Good question. That's why I wondered about his appointment of Treasury Secretary. A Friedmanite and we're going nowhere. Keynesian and we have a chance of getting out of this mess (although either way is still going to be painful). A Keynesian should be able to get us out of this quicker.

btw Mox, have you read, "The Shock Doctrine" yet?

Didn't know it...http://www.ecorazzi.com/2008/11/05/edward-nortons-obama-documentary-gets-a-hollywood-ending/

min,

I poke my head out of my hole every once in a while to stick my oar in. Have only read excerpts of the book so far and am not sure where i stand regarding the main argument of the book, will have to read it in its entirety. I have it on order from the library so i should have read it by Christmas.

mox,

moxdevil said:

Have only read excerpts of the book so far and am not sure where i stand regarding the main argument of the book, will have to read it in its entirety. I have it on order from the library so i should have read it by Christmas.

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It's not an easy read. I found myself going back over quite a few paragraphs as (since I'm not an economist) some of the concepts are difficult to understand. You may want to just pick it up as it took me longer than a month to read (and hopefully understand). I do highly recommend it though and I think you'll probably like it. A little while back, virtually everyone I ran into was telling me to read the book. They were right. A must read if you want to have an understanding of whats currently happening to us.

Texan said:

Lets look at this in general terms assuming earnings are based on AGI.

Obama't tax plan is to increase the tax rate on those earning $250,000 or more by 3.6% which is $9,000. This group represents roughly 5% of the tax payers in America. The other 95% will see a decrease in their tax rate by an average of $1,000 a year(ICE CREAM).

Now lets apply this to a cross section of the population by using 1,000,000 people.

5% of 1,000,000 is 50,000 tax payers multiplied by $9,000 equals $450,000,000 into the Treasury.

95% of 1,000,000 is 950,000 tax payers multiplied by $1,000 equals $950,000,000 leaving the Treasury(on Ice Cream Trucks)

That is a difference of $500,000,000. How will he fund his programs and balance the budget when his plan starts out in the hole? The only way is to raise taxes on those making less than $250,000 annually. My guess is in order for him to do this he will need to increase taxes by 3% on those making $70,000 or more annually. Get your check books out folks.

On a positive note I am glad that just 40+ years removed from the Civil Rights Movement this county has elected a person of color the Office of President. I just wish it wasn't him.

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Your maths works out perfectly if all of the 50,000 people earn exactly $250,000 a year, but guess what, quite a few of that 50,000 out of a million earn in the 8 digits.

So let us say that outside of your 50,000 who earn $250,000 there are 50,000 people in America that earn around $10,000,000 p/a, which isn't too hard to believe. Now if we add maths to that number, 3.6% of $10,000,000 is $360,000.

So the increase in taxes of $360,000 on those 50,000 will mean an extra $18,000,000,000, yes 18 billion, minus the $950,000,000 lost through the low earners and you still have a massive profit. So in the end the massive earners will offset the difference by a long way so it should (if the plan goes well) work out perfectly. Make the poor richer, not affect the rich all that much and get some money to the Government.

No "ice cream" in the plan at all, it is plain to see you just hate Obama, and some of his policies may be wrong, we are yet to see, but just looking at this plan there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

s6boysam said:

So the increase in taxes of $360,000 on those 50,000 will mean an extra $18,000,000,000, yes 18 billion, minus the $950,000,000 lost through the low earners and you still have a massive profit. So in the end the massive earners will offset the difference by a long way so it should (if the plan goes well) work out perfectly. Make the poor richer, not affect the rich all that much and get some money to the Government..

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As long as we're all doing math, here's mine...18 billion a year multiplied by 4 years is 72 billion....to pay for a 740 billion proposed program spending equals rocky road ice cream. Oh minus the money lost through the low earners you were talking about, i never was too good at math.

Sarah Palin thought that Africa was a country


The Republican candidate for vice chair of the U.S., Sarah Palin, I thought Africa was a country instead of a continent, the second element of the campaign staff of John McCain.
The candidacy of McCain's staff was shocked by the lack of knowledge of the governor of Alaska in briefings, showed the chief editor of the conservative politics of Fox News, Carl Cameron.

'She does not understand, they told me the staff members of McCain, that Africa was a continent and not a country and even to ask whether South Africa was not only part of a country,' said Cameron in the program "The O ' Reilly Factor. "

Palin also could not specify the countries involved in NAFTA, the free trade area in North America, one of the important themes of the campaign, said Cameron.

Tensions between the candidate and the campaign of McCain's staff increased and sometimes the discussions finished with elements of the staff in tears, revealed Cameron

How could win ...

s6boysam said:

Your maths works out perfectly if all of the 50,000 people earn exactly $250,000 a year, but guess what, quite a few of that 50,000 out of a million earn in the 8 digits.

So let us say that outside of your 50,000 who earn $250,000 there are 50,000 people in America that earn around $10,000,000 p/a, which isn't too hard to believe. Now if we add maths to that number, 3.6% of $10,000,000 is $360,000.

So the increase in taxes of $360,000 on those 50,000 will mean an extra $18,000,000,000, yes 18 billion, minus the $950,000,000 lost through the low earners and you still have a massive profit. So in the end the massive earners will offset the difference by a long way so it should (if the plan goes well) work out perfectly. Make the poor richer, not affect the rich all that much and get some money to the Government.

No "ice cream" in the plan at all, it is plain to see you just hate Obama, and some of his policies may be wrong, we are yet to see, but just looking at this plan there is nothing wrong with it whatsoever.

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First off your numbers are a little skewed. If you are using my numbers you have 5% of the 1,000,000 making $10,000,000 a year and that is not the case. Only about 0.007% of the population earn $1,000,000 or more a year.

Now lets say of the 50,000 people earning $250,000 or more a year, 0.01%(very generous) earn as you say $10,000,000 a year. With a 3.6% increase in taxes comes out to $360,000 times 500 equals $180,000,000 (Yes that is not 18 billion). Now you remove the 500 people from the 50,000 and that leaves you with 45,500 people earning 250,000 or more a year. Adjust the $450,000,000 for the new information and you have $409,500,000. Add in the $180,000,000 and you get $589,500,000 from this group to the treasury as tax revenue. No huge profit as you claimed.

kamikasi_69 said:

Sarah Palin thought that Africa was a country


The Republican candidate for vice chair of the U.S., Sarah Palin, I thought Africa was a country instead of a continent, the second element of the campaign staff of John McCain.
The candidacy of McCain's staff was shocked by the lack of knowledge of the governor of Alaska in briefings, showed the chief editor of the conservative politics of Fox News, Carl Cameron.

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Just like Obama claimed he visited 57 states.

Texan said:

Just like Obama claimed he visited 57 states.

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not quite "just like"

Obama blundered there, no doubt, but he was obviously thinking 47 when he said "one more to go," and that he wouldn't be able to visit Alaska and Hawaii.

Palin, on the other hand, showed significant ignorance enough times to be an embarassment, and her choice was clearly a huge misstep for McCain and brought his judgement into question. He's neither a bad man nor an ignorant one, but I'm certain that choice was a big factor in his loss.

As far as the math goes, there is much more to it than anything written here. I don't need all the real numbers written out, as I have no illusions of free ice cream and can thankfully still afford to buy my own... for now. I'm perfectly willing to see how the tax plan plays out and not gripe about the spending (for all their talk of taxes being too high, the republicans in office haven't really shown themselves to be averse to some serious deficit spending - it's been more a matter of where the money goes rather than how much). I voted for Obama because his ideals are much more in line with my own than any of his opponents, and I'm sure the vast majority of others who chose him did so with similar reasons in mind. There will indeed be a small number of folks with a nine year old mentality that followed some perceived ice cream truck, always (no doubt at least offset by the number who meandered in the McCain/Palin direction due to some equally mature religious beliefs), but it is nowhere near 60% of us.

What the Hell ! Bush & Congress bails-out wallstreet and nothing happened on my level of the food chain to matter. Now Obama & Congress talk about a bail-out for the Motor Companys ! When the hell is this shit going to stop ? Ain't this the same trickle down bullshit we just got rid of ! 700 billion ! Let me say this again 700 billion ! There is only suppose to be around 6.5 billion people on the freak'en panet . Now if you just brake that down to the US thats about 250 million. It would have been cheaper to give everyone a few million and let them go on a freak'en shopping spree ! . I know a bunch of dumb asses around me ,that would blow most of theirs on spinner rims and sneakers . Same ole,Same Shit "trickle-down economics" !

Texan said:

First off your numbers are a little skewed. If you are using my numbers you have 5% of the 1,000,000 making $10,000,000 a year and that is not the case. Only about 0.007% of the population earn $1,000,000 or more a year.

Now lets say of the 50,000 people earning $250,000 or more a year, 0.01%(very generous) earn as you say $10,000,000 a year. With a 3.6% increase in taxes comes out to $360,000 times 500 equals $180,000,000 (Yes that is not 18 billion). Now you remove the 500 people from the 50,000 and that leaves you with 45,500 people earning 250,000 or more a year. Adjust the $450,000,000 for the new information and you have $409,500,000. Add in the $180,000,000 and you get $589,500,000 from this group to the treasury as tax revenue. No huge profit as you claimed.

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THAT is not a huge profit? I am sorry I didn't realise I was speaking to the Dubai Royal family. Dude just admit you hate Obama and that is the reason you are even talking about this, and the stupid shit with ice cream. It doesn't matter if you hate him mate I downright loathe our Prime Minister and there is nobody decent that could replace him, so the whole country is fucked, but there is no point bitching about his policies, you will just do yourself a mischief.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic. Sell not liberty to purchase power.

Benjamin Franklin

elmerfudd said:

Ain't this the same trickle down bullshit we just got rid of ! 700 billion ! Let me say this again 700 billion ! There is only suppose to be around 6.5 billion people on the freak'en panet . Now if you just brake that down to the US thats about 250 million. It would have been cheaper to give everyone a few million and let them go on a freak'en shopping spree ! . I know a bunch of dumb asses around me ,that would blow most of theirs on spinner rims and sneakers . Same ole,Same Shit "trickle-down economics" !

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Thats exactly how i feel, though there's now a little over 300 million people, fuck there's only 50 states, where is all the fucking money going. Michelle Obama's last speech was about investing "BILLIONS" in education. Economics not being my strongpoint begs me to ask "where the fuck is the money going. Can anyone here explain how you can even spend that much money in a country with so little people?

Duke E. Pyle said:

Thats exactly how i feel, though there's now a little over 300 million people, fuck there's only 50 states, where is all the fucking money going. Michelle Obama's last speech was about investing "BILLIONS" in education. Economics not being my strongpoint begs me to ask "where the fuck is the money going. Can anyone here explain how you can even spend that much money in a country with so little people?

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I can explain in detail but i will not do that because you guys don't want to hear the thruth.

Mandatory spending: $1.788 trillion (+4.2%)
o $608 billion (+4.5%) - Social Security
o $386 billion (+5.2%) - Medicare
o $209 billion (+5.6%) - Medicaid and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
o $324 billion (+1.8%) - Unemployment/Welfare/Other mandatory spending
o $261 billion (+9.2%) - Interest on National Debt

Discretionary spending: $1.114 trillion (+3.1%)
o $481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense
o $145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror
o $69.3 billion (+0.3%) - Health and Human Services
o $56.0 billion (+0.0%) - United States Department of Education
o $39.4 billion (+18.7%) - United States Department of Veterans Affairs
o $35.2 billion (+1.4%) - US Department of Housing and Urban Development
o $35.0 billion (+22.0%) - State and Other International Programs
o $34.3 billion (+7.2%) - Department of Homeland Security
o $24.3 billion (+6.6%) - Energy
o $20.2 billion (+4.1%) - Department of Justice
o $20.2 billion (+3.1%) - Department of Agriculture
o $17.3 billion (+6.8%) - National Aeronautics and Space Administration
o $12.1 billion (+13.1%) - Department of Transportation
o $12.1 billion (+6.1%) - Department of Treasury
o $10.6 billion (+2.9%) - United States Department of the Interior
o $10.6 billion (-9.4%) - United States Department of Labor
o $51.8 billion (+9.7%) - Other On-budget Discretionary Spending
o $39.0 billion - Other Off-budget Discretionary Spending

The Iraq war and the Afghanistan war are not part of the defense budget; they are appropriations.

Thanks Tex but i especially don't understand now. If every citizen of the United States was 70 years old then according to the stats, they should get almost exactly 2 billion dollars each per year. Instead Social Security is spent and broken. I don't expect to learn economics off a forum but goddamn.

Duke E. Pyle said:

Thanks Tex but i especially don't understand now. If every citizen of the United States was 70 years old then according to the stats, they should get almost exactly 2 billion dollars each per year. Instead Social Security is spent and broken. I don't expect to learn economics off a forum but goddamn.

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Go back to school -- $608 billion divided by 300 million people equals $2,027 apiece....

$2,027 My Grandmother is only getting 1,052. And she has to pay her Med-company out of that. Why don't they just instead of calling it "trickle down economics" they call it the "Piss-on-you Management" ?