Kanye West is at it again...

one,

"however we cannot make assumptions based on HISTORY. i thought we were talking about facts and whats really happening?"

There is an old saying, "Those that do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it" (or something like that). Stuff like this has happened many times before so the actions of human beings are completely predictable given a similar situation.

"does anyone black or white need new shoes and a plasma TV"

The plasma TV? Absolutely not, they should be shot as a looter. But the shoes bring up an interesting point. I was watching one of the news channels last night and a female reporter was reporting on the looting. She actually went up to a few people that were "looting" a store for shoes and when she asked them why, one of the guys lifted his foot from the water and showed that he had no shoes. He had to leave his home so fast that all he left with were the clothes on his back. Is that looting? I dare to say that, given the same circumstances, all of us would do the same. Before seeing that report I would have agreed with you on the shoes, but I don't completely agree now. I guess it would depend on the context.

"you are just want to disagree with what anyone says, even those of us that agree with you. your last post has in no way proved that The whitehouse or federal govt were slow because of racism. thats what you are trying to prove right?"

Can I prove racism was behind the gov't's slow response? No, of course not. Nobody can. But those of us that are familiar with the subject have to wonder. There have been many other disasters that have happened recently, and not only in the US. The first thing that any competant administrator should do in such a situation is send in the troops because that is how you ensure stability. Nothing else can go forward without it. Why didn't that happen? And no, I'm not saying it was the only reason, but it did play a part.

"the feds are slow because the govt is SLOW and all the BS processes involved"

If you'll remember correctly, right after 9/11, all States were ordered by the Feds to identify and analyze threats and were given millions of dollars to try and alleviate those threats. Louisiana (and the Feds) recognized during those assessments that one of the top three threats within the entire US is just what we are seeing today. They knew this was coming, they just didn't know the exact date! Now move forward to a week ago yesterday (Saturday). Katrina was now a Cat 5 in the Gulf and was headed for N.O. People were already leaving. What were the feds and State doing? I don't know. But it certainly appears they weren't doing what they should have been.

I've been hearing today about the battle between the feds and State. This should prove interesting to watch and see what happens. And I am familiar with the existing protocols (I just tried to explain them in the other thread to someone from outside the US).

"the truth is the govt is fucked. it takes too long to get help where it is needed. partisian politics are EVERYWHERE and no one can agree how to handle anything on a normal day, let alone a disaster."

I agree here with you 100%. If this is the best the gov't can do, almost four years to the day after 9/11, we're screwed. What happened to all that money that Louisiana and the feds spent to prepare for this day? It appears to me that it must have gone into someones pocket, and not where it was intended. Which brings up another point. What happened to all the rest of the money that went to the rest of the States? If it was spent similarly, all of us have been swindled.

"why are you so defensive? no one is attacking you, i AGREE with you."

One! I'm not defensive at all. If it has seemed so, I am sorry and I apologize. But this is a VERY important time and argument. People need to understand what is going on and how it will affect them. I listen to what these pols and bureaucrats are saying, as all of us should, and they're going to take us right down the same road, smack into disaster again. Unless we stop them, no one else will.

People working together? I agree 100%. But my fear is, again, that the special interests will win the day and, sooner or later, we'll be going through this again. Unless WE THE PEOPLE, stop it.

I think many people have the wrong idea of the whole looting fiasco.
To look at one instance where a guy needed shoes is fine, but that does not represent the big picture at all.
Consider these things:
1. The New Orleans Walmart store (one of many?) was completely cleaned out in the gun section...
2. As shown in an earlier post, police officers (black females) were looting at a store with media present.
3. Looting doesn't only occur at stores. I have read articles about people guarding their homes in the less affected affluent neighborhoods. People were actually breaking into private residences and looting their belongings. In my mind, that is a complete disregard for material ownership and there is no good excuse to justify it.

Mindido, as far as my comments about the fed's performance, I suppose I was getting too technical. Look back at the statement in question:

mindido said:

The State of Louisiana and the feds, in my opinion, are graded an F- for their performance in the first three days.

Click to expand...

I can agree that poor reaction time and poor performance could be construed as the same thing. But in a later post, you said this:

mindido said:

There was NO performance (by the feds) in the first three days, they were nowhere to be found.

Click to expand...

As you can see, the original quote and the later quote don't exactly match up.

Also, I agree that racism is a factor because, as I said, race (and racism) is a part of many aspects of life. I simply disagree with your views on "hidden racism" and especially that "people of color experience racisim every day."
You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, so I am not in any way calling you out, I just disagree.

I went to a high school where the MAJORITY of kids was a so called minority. In reality though, I was the minority at school. Racism is a two-way street and I can vouch for that with first hand experiences. For example, I had a black girlfriend in my senior year and I am white. I did not get comments every day, but there were plenty of times when black guys would say things about our relationship. You can imagine; "Hey white boy, you got a taste for chocolate?" or "Man, you wouldn't know what to do with that." Were they jealous, ignorant, racist or just assholes? You tell me, you seem to know a lot about racism.

Also, my school was a charter school that had kids enrolled from all over the Detroit metro area. I came from a more affluent city in the metro area and I had to face stereotypes about my financial situation quite often. I was by no means rich, but that didn't stop people from thinking that I was. Why is that?

Black Like Me took place, coincidentally, in New Orleans in 1959.
Not only was New Orleans in a state that was part of the confederacy during the civil war, but it was also one of the typical southern areas where blacks were subject to racism moreso than if they lived in a Northern state. While the book does stand the test of time, it is naive to think that things haven't gotten better since then for minorities. It was afterall 46 years ago, and like I said, you have to consider the setting.

Richie,

I'm not trying to defend cetain types of looting. But I think it is pretty clear that, given the situation, certain instances are not worthy of shooting someone. Looting plasma TV's and guns? They should be shot. That would be the classic definition of a looter. Trying to find food and water? Each and every one of us would do the same. I can't blame anyone for that. The sneakers? As I said in the last post, it would depend on the context but, given that a whole heck of a lot of those people probably woke up with water in their nose, well? I just know that if I had been waken with water all around me, and had to get out of there ASAP, and couldn't find my shoes on the way out, I would hope that I wouldn't get shot for pilfering a pair of shoes.

I just heard an interview with the N.O. Chief of Police where he clearly admitted that his officers looted various stores. For what? He didn't elaborate but, given what those people have been through the last few days, I'm not going to fault them for that. And I also saw an interview several days ago where the Governor of the State recognized the problems and wasn't harsh with people scavenging for food and clothing.

As far as the 2 quotes, pretty picky, but they both still add up to an F-.

"I simply disagree with your views on "hidden racism"

Please explain. I didn't think there was much debate about that anymore but I'm interested in hearing your views.

"and especially that "people of color experience racisim every day."

My post said, "there is virtually not a day that goes by, that they don't experience some form of racism." Of course its not every day, but it happens much more often than it should.

There is no doubt that racism is a two way street, I wouldn't argue that for a moment.

Richie, you were probably lucky (?) in going to an inner city school (as I did) in that you have a better understanding of the problem than most. But you should also realize that the things you and I experienced continue to this day.

"Were they jealous, ignorant, racist or just assholes? You tell me,"

A little of each, you hit it right on the head. Racism from anyone is intolerable, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Society has changed a lot since 1959 in many ways. But in other ways, it has not. Since your from Detroit, you should know that race relations in that city are not all that great. Detroit is just like L.A., where, should a few instances occur, that city could erupt in an all out riot. Most of our major cities are the same.

"Not only was New Orleans in a state that was part of the confederacy during the civil war, but it was also one of the typical southern areas where blacks were subject to racism moreso than if they lived in a Northern state."

I wish I could remember some of the books I've read on this subject (I'll have to think about it) but, although racism in the South has been more overt, Northern cities during and after the Civil War have not exactly been welcoming.

Enough for now. This is supposed to be a vacation day.

Mindido let me first say that I respect your opinions even if I don't agree with all of them.

That aside, I don't think people should be shot for looting anything except for guns. And in that case, it would only be acceptable to shoot a looter if usual police discretion was used. I wouldn't want police shooting looters just for holding a gun but if they had made attempts to fire it at people, that's another story.

As far as hidden racism is concerned, I will go so far as to say that, in the U.S, there are more crimes committed by minorities than by whites. Does that sound racist as hell? Maybe. Do things such as quality of life, lack of opportunity, and poverty contribute to that statement? Definitely. But it doesn't change the fact that crimes are being committed. Maybe that's just a stereotype because I have no statistics to prove it. But I believe that it is that kind of mindset that contributes to the way minorities are portryed on the news. So you can call it hidden racism but I'll just call it sad but true.
Give me some stats to prove me wrong, I would actually welcome it because it certainly would be a harsh reality if I'm right.

Also, what I'm about to type could be "one of the lies my textbook told me," but I have always had the impression that Northern states were a safer haven for blacks during the civil war era. People such as Frederick Douglas were allowed to live freely after having escaped from the oppressive South. Douglas used his (relative) freedom to publish a newsletter denouncing racism. That would never have been allowed in a Southern city.

Richie,

I agree about the shooting, it was just a common term. I'm not sure what the crime statistics are either but it shouldn't be hard to find them. I'll take a look.

"there are more crimes committed by minorities than by whites. Does that sound racist as hell?"

IF true, no, not to me. It sounds like a statistic.

The Northern States were a safer haven for blacks before, during and after the Civil War basically due to a high percentage of abolitionists in the North. But that doesn't mean that blacks were welcomed by all, far from it. Many northern states, Indiana especially, had populations that were almost vehement about the introduction of blacks into the state. To this day, Indiana still has a fairly large contingent of KKK.

Its been a while since I extensively studied the Civil War but I'm sure I can come up with a lot of references. I'll see what I can find.

I think laying the blame game while potential survivors are still submerged in their homes and towns is inappropriate, what Kanye West said regardless of it's veracity was a terrible thing to say, let us be honest with ourselves if we really wanted to help would any red tape stop us?

what permission was required or red tape was required to help the victims of the tsunami?

what permission was required or red tape was required to help the victims of 9/11?

what procedure did anybody have to go through to help in those situations? if anybody wanted to help there was nothing and is nothing stopping them.

With the news reports that people are being raped and sodomised who would want to go and volunteer in a situation knowing full well they might be raped and sodomised? I personally believe the news coverage has probably caused the deaths of several thousands of individuals with the delay of help for fear of what might happen.

It is so easy in hindsight to lay the blame on whoever, anybody could easily say there are 200 school buses owned by the city of New orleans which could have evacuated over 23,000 individuals in a 14 hr period if they had been used and now they are lying dormant and submerged, it is easy to blame Bush and Nagin and whoever comes to mind, all I am saying is now is not the time, not when they are people still waiting to be rescued.

Onerythym, you're right. It is hard to take everything into account when it comes to racism.
And poverty does contribute greatly to the topic. That's why I have said previously that race isn't the main issue and that poverty and financial class are the real issues.

Forgive me for adding a bit of humour to this tragic situation. I felt the tense discussion between a few of you could use a bit of a lift (if this does in fact lift things up a bit).

Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people" Wow, now there is a shocker ! When has anyone in the entertainment field not blamed George Bush . I know that if I was setting on the roof of my house and had lost everything my question wouldn't be about race , it wouldn't be about rich or poor , and it sure the hell wouldn't be about what Kanye West says ! My first question would be , what the hell took so-long ? And then after I was safe and started to think about the loss of everything . Why did this have to happen ? I would start the blame a little closer to home , like the Mayor , city planners , the Governor. I've been there, and I've seen the land . And someone living there must have knowen it was only a matter of time. I think the city planners should have had , some kind of workable evacuation worked out . My God , the city is below sea level . And a lot of people are poor and can't just leave. The people of Louisiana are so nice down there . The black , the white , the creole . And to those who have suffered , God Bless You !

Thanks elmerfudd. You nailed that one on the head.

The Governor was the one that took almost 3 days before requesting Federal assistance. There is a federal law that prohibits the federal goverment from intervening in matters of the individual states until asked. This situation has been in the planning books for years as a potential disaster and plans have been drawn up, but until the Governor asks for help, nothing can be done.

As for the looters...The Mayor of N.O. said himself that 25% of the city has an I.V drug problem and that a majority of the looting going on was in hospitals and drug stores by addicts looking for a fix.

If i remember correctly, they sent around busses 2 days before the hurricane hit all up until the hurricane hit, the busses were free, they also had police escort... anyone who didn't get out, it's their fault, that's excluding the elderly. But why even talk about fault... There were so many things that could have been done different... But the fact is they went down the way they did and you can't take it back, they only thing you can do is work from where you are...

Richie,

I just did a google search on "northern states racism". These are only a few sources, there are many more. I included a few pertinent quotes.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4narr3.html

"In a Philadelphia study in 1846, practically all poor black infants died shortly after birth. Even wealthy blacks were prohibited from living in white neighborhoods due to whites' fear of declining property values."

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/Slavery02.htm

"The framers also made their most infamous compromise: to count slaves as three-fifths of a person for purposes of both taxation and representation. The South's demand to count its non-voting slaves as population to increase its voting power in the House was eclipsed only by its unwillingness to be taxed on these same people."

http://www.rit.edu/~nrcgsh/bx/bx04c.html

"The continual flow of runaways from the South brought an increasing supply of cheap black labor to compete with white workers, and the friction between the two races continued. While many of the runaways, like Frederick Douglass, had worked as skilled craftsmen in the South, they found economic discrimination in the North limiting them to menial labor."

And I can't remember where I read it, but I'm virtually positive that Frederick Douglas wrote several times on the issue of northern racism.

I'm sure there were plenty of instances where discrimination and racism occured in Northern states, but I still have the impression that things were much worse in the South.

Many runaways probably worked as skilled laborers in the South before facing economic discrimination in the North. But I think it's safe to say that discrimination in the North is "better" than doing that "skilled labor" in the South for free as a slave.

Come on man, where did the underground railroad lead?
What I remember is that it led escaped slaves from the Southern U.S into "free" states in the North.

Also, Frederick Douglas published an antislavery newsletter called "The North Star."
Not to mention, he was one of the leaders of the antislavery movement BEFORE the Civil War.
So, I'm not so sure that he ever singled out "Northern Racism." I would assume that he spoke out against Southern racism or racism against blacks in the U.S as a whole.

You all are talking about racism and your going back to the civilwar ? Hasn't that ship sailed ! Haven't we beat that dead horse ? To yell about racism today , is like, the first to say uncle ! When all hope in winning an argument is gone. To say someone is racist , makes you a racist in it's self. But if you go back to the civilwar there was racism in the north, as there was in the south . The underground railroad ran as far as Canada. Texas the state that first open their arms to Katrina victims was on the side of the south. And alot of people in the north didn't like Lincoln, because they had slaves too. And the civilwar was not only about slavery, it was also about industry. Today you can find racism in different ways. It's hidden , but it's there. From a person not being hired for a job. Even if an application says, employment is not based on religion color cred, but still asks for race . Do you think that its because your skin color might clash with your work area . No ! And it's not only whites , why is there a Miss Black America . If there was a Miss White America, how far do you think that would get ? Everyone, some where ,some time, will be a subject of racism. Gays , Blacks ,Whites , Mexicans , and so-forth and so-on. Going back to the civilwar , I wasn't there I read about . But I wasn't there , and I'll go on record and bet , no one alive today was there . Racism is the here and now North ,South ,everywhere. Some might say that I'm a racist for writting this, but wouldn't that make you a racist. The only thing we can do is to try and weed it out. Untill we get down to that generation that does not remember how we were divided , but read about it .

elmer,

I won't argue with that one bit.

I hope you didn't think that my post was supposed to be read that way... I re-read what my post said... I made several gramatical errors which made it sound horrible...

I meant to say, "It went down the way it did and there's nothing you can do but work from where you are" Meaning what happened these past few days (hurricane and set backs in releif efforts.) can't be changed and all you can do is work from today on (cleaning up and helping out). Sorry if you guys thought i meant something else.

Fudd you're 100% right...

The civil war discussion stemmed from the use of "Black Like Me" as a reference. And if there is any period of time when racism was a huge issue, the Civil War era is certainly one of them.

elmerfudd said:

Some might say that I'm a racist for writting this, but wouldn't that make you a racist?

Click to expand...

No, it wouldn't.

Also, if racism is everywhere and happening to someone at all times, why would we need to "weed it out?"
By the time people are "reading about racism and not practicing it," it will only be as a result of aliens landing and everyone focusing their hate and prejudice on them.

Mindido,
Pertaining to your statements and links...the Irish weren't the scum of the earth in the mid 1800's? Nor the Italians at the turn of that century? Let alone the Jews who've been vilified almost everywhere they've gone?
The point I'm trying to make here is that, if Kanye West is so horrified by the treatment "his" people have gotten, why doesn't he spend millions on them, instead of the "bling bling" and the fancy cars and the "hos"?
By the way- "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."-George Santayana.

Great point Red. Many tend to forget (including me) that people of all races and colors have been singled out and discriminated against at some point in the past. Brits made life miserable for the Scottish in days of old. Spanish explorers pretty much crushed various Mexican civilizations and made the residents slaves. During the 1860's, New York City had immigrants flowing in from numerous countries. Once they all "mixed together" in the city, a sort of chain of discrimination occured. Dutch immigrants hated the Irish. Irish hated the Italians. Everyone hated African Americans. So, the past is relevant and should not be overlooked.

Red Horse,

I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. The links were provided because Richie had questions about racism in the north during the Civil War era. And I'm certainly familiar with all of the ethnic tensions you have mentioned.

As far as Kanye West is concerned, I'd barely even heard his name before this subject came up. Why does he do what he does? I haven't a clue. I don't listen to (or even like) hip-hop or rap (or whatever its called) and what he does with his money is none of my concern. But this does bring up an interesting point. What the heck is "bling bling"? I've heard the term but don't know what it is.

Oh, and thanks for the Santayana quote. I came pretty darn close.