Future of Politics

[mindido]

Preferred,

I guess the question is, as far as Jessie is concerned, did he do any better or worse than the alternatives? Granted, I'm sure he had problems with the legislature, as I'm sure they hated him. But, Minnesota is still there, I think? , so things didn't totally go to hell, or did they?

The interesting thing to me is, what would now happen if Texas did vote in another independent? First one state (an oddity), then another (a trend?). Maybe the pols would get the idea that people all over the place aren't particularly happy with them.

 

[Texan]

We tried that in Minnesota. We put a "wrassler" in the governor's office cause the other two parties were so vanilla. It's not all it's cracked up to be. By the way, I believe the same guy is managing Friedman's campaign (Dean Barkley) as managed Jesse The Body's campaign.

You are correct, the Kinkster has the same campaign manager as Ventura. Every time I think of him as governor I picture Willie smokin dope on the roof of the Governor's mansion.

 

[mindido]

Every time I think of him as governor I picture Willie smokin dope on the roof of the Governor's mansion.

Tex,

I guess I'd prefer that then taking tons of money from some lobbyist. Also, FYI, Kinky said in the interview last night that he hasn't done any drugs in the last 20 years or so. The question was asked.

 

[Preferred User]

But, Minnesota is still there, I think? , so things didn't totally go to hell, or did they?

By that standard, we have yet to have a bad president. Did Jesse take MN off the map? No. But very little got done, unless you count Jesse promoting Jesse. The economy was good but I don't think governnors have much control over that, good or bad. It was nothing but embarrasing bad news. He alienated everyone he needed to do business with in gov't. He got us a light rail system that...well, I think the jury's still out on that. There are some benefits, but it was ungodly expensive.

The alternatives were not good. H Humphrey's shrill son and Norm Coleman, who was just coming from a pretty successful term as St. Paul mayor. This was before he was G W's errand boy, and would have been a better choice.

 

[cableguy]

tex, willie wasnt smoking dope on the govs mansion here, i believe that was the roof of the white house, under President Clinton...

jesse was a freakin disaster here... perhaps the only saving grace is taht not much got done, which is always a good thing... he broke damn near every promise he made, abandoned most of what he ran on, and proved that being socially liberal is not in any way compatible with being fiscally conservative...

preferred, the light rail is perhaps the biggest waste of your tax dollars and mine... it is far more expensive than any other mode of transportation, INCLUDING buying cars for those who ride it... it will never come anywhere close to paying for itself, either...

mindido... "I really think you need to relearn elementary math. Since when does 2/3 (or 100%) = 1/2?"

HUH??? reread my post please, as i did when i read that--thinking i had made a mistake when posting... turns out the mistake was your reading... 1/3 was the only fraction i used, and i couldnt find a single mention of half of anything... the only valid half would be that abramoff gave half as much to the dems... that was covered by the 1/3, though... check your prescription, you may need something stronger...

 

[Preferred User]

preferred, the light rail is perhaps the biggest waste of your tax dollars and mine... it is far more expensive than any other mode of transportation, INCLUDING buying cars for those who ride it... it will never come anywhere close to paying for itself, either...

I was trying to be fair to "The Body". So far I agree with you on light rail. Ridership numbers are good, but last I knew every $1.50 ride costs the state another $6.50. I wish the state paid me $6.50 every time I got in my car.

 

[mindido]

Preferred,

I guess I have a question about Jessie.

Who votd for him and how did he get voted in?

It seems to me that there must have been some dissatisfaction with the status quo for him to get elected. And once he was elected, its just common sense that the two political parties are going to do everything within their power to make sure that:

1. He gets nothing done.
2. He's vilified.
3. No other third party candidate ever gets elected again.

So, how much of what happened is really Jessie's fault? And how much of what happened is due to the legislature? Was there any change in corruption?

It just seems to me that the two party system here is a farce. Both parties are more concerned about their "parties" than they are about the nation.

 

[Preferred User]

Preferred,

I guess I have a question about Jessie.

Who votd for him and how did he get voted in?

It was a pretty apathetic electorate. His lack of typical political polish attracted many unregistered voters and people who don't normally vote.

It seems to me that there must have been some dissatisfaction with the status quo for him to get elected. And once he was elected, its just common sense that the two political parties are going to do everything within their power to make sure that:

1. He gets nothing done.
2. He's vilified.
3. No other third party candidate ever gets elected again.

All three were true...though not so much number three I guess.

So, how much of what happened is really Jessie's fault? And how much of what happened is due to the legislature? Was there any change in corruption?

I understand your comments but I have to give Jesse a lot of blame. Before he was governor he was mayor of a Minneapolis suburb. Same thing there, of course the existing system is not going to help an outsider. But....Jesse did nothing but ridicule and disrespect the establishment. The essence of politics is getting people to play along. Jesse just picked fights when he was mayor, and picked fights when he was governor.

It just seems to me that the two party system here is a farce. Both parties are more concerned about their "parties" than they are about the nation.

Can't argue there, but Jesse did absolutely nothing to recognize, or deal with, that reality. He just picked fights.

 

[mindido]

Preferred,

I can't defend Jessie very well as I didn't see what happened there on a day to day basis. But a few other questions.

1. Was Jessie trying to do good for the State?
2. If the legislature had been honest (sorry, we all know thats impossible), would Jessie's policies have been good for the State?

It seems to me that it was probably known from the time he was elected that he was going to be ineffectual, any independent (anywhere) is going to see the two parties converge in opposition. More evidence of collusion? So if Jessie was forced to fight, was it really his only option?

 

[Preferred User]

1. Was Jessie trying to do good for the State?

Hmmmmm....on some level. But there is ample evidence that he never even thought he'd win. He did it on a lark, and it was all about Jesse. I think Jesse only does what benefits Jesse. If something good for the state didn't get in the way of Jesse's plan, then so much the better.

2. If the legislature had been honest (sorry, we all know thats impossible), would Jessie's policies have been good for the State?

If you drive an expensive car and don't like the progressive tax structure of the state's license tabs, then he was good for the state. He promised to give back the then surplus in the state treasury and only gave back some, and not just because of legislative vengence or gridlock. He just got in and realized the answers are not all as easy as they seem on the outside...sort of like David Stockton's stories about Regan.

I don't know that Jesse really had any policies past that. His real policy was to promote Jesse. Oh, and the light rail that Cable Guy and I both think is pretty questionable.

It seems to me that it was probably known from the time he was elected that he was going to be ineffectual, any independent (anywhere) is going to see the two parties converge in opposition. More evidence of collusion? So if Jessie was forced to fight, was it really his only option?

If fighting was his only option, then we should never vote for an independent. But if you look at Jesse's life, fighting is what he does. I just think he's more comfortable when he's set up a "them versus me" scenario. He's going to do that no matter what situation he's in. He's not a complicated guy. I don't think he understands courtship...only clubbing people over the head and dragging them back to his corner.

 

[mindido]

Preferred,

So I guess people in MN wouldn't vote for Jessie again if he ran? I don't think he would as I saw something recently (I don't remember where) where he said he was planning on leaving the country.

Well, I hope that isn't a complete indictment of independents as then, I feel, we really are in for a lot of trouble.

"I don't think he understands courtship...only clubbing people over the head and dragging them back to his corner."

That I can definitely believe about Jessie. LOL!

 

[mindido]

Hmmmm,

I don't think this was what old GW was thinking about when he decided it was a good idea to democratize the middle east:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

Hamas, a known terrorist group and affiliate of Iran, has been elected to represent the Palestinians. Hoo boy!

and, contrary to some opinions around here, the US is getting a bit nervous about the amount of influence China is beginning to exert around the world:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060127/pl_afp/forumdavosuschina

 

[endymion]

On the influence thing -
Australia is currently in trade talks with China, and were told not to hope for any lowering on tarriffs on our agricultural exports. This is one of the quotes from the Chinese:

"I hope the Australian side would understand and appreciate the sensitivity in China and China's agricultural areas. After all, China's stability is important to China, and to Australia too."

Way to tell Australia what to think, China! It seems another country has learned how to throw their weight around like the US does. No wonder the US is getting nervous. That's probably the deal with the Iran/India situation at the moment, the US trying to strong-arm China's biggest neighbour.

In regards to Hamas, yeah, that's a bitch for Bush. I personally think he should go over there to congratulate the new, democratically elected government. And while he's there he should remind them all of his pro-Israel stance, just to see what reaction he gets. That's be interesting. Then he could start "Operation Freedom from... uh... democracy", and invade Palestine.

 

[mindido]

Australia is currently in trade talks with China, and were told not to hope for any lowering on tarriffs on our agricultural exports.

The Chinese seem to be quite good at making sure tariffs for products coming into China are kept high but tariffs for their products are kept low. Its really unbelievable that our governments are putting up with this.

It seems another country has learned how to throw their weight around like the US does. No wonder the US is getting nervous.

Yup, it seems they've studied us well, while we seem to be pretty much in the dark about them.

In regards to Hamas, yeah, that's a bitch for Bush.

Yeah, this Bush program of democratizing the Middle East hasn't exactly gone the way he planned. Its funny, years ago in college I had a friend from Iraq. During the first gulf war we had a conversation about democracy in Iraq. He thought it would never work (or at least take generations before it did). Why? Because the Iraqi's would vote for whomever their mullah said they should. The last election certainly showed he was right on the money.

I personally think he should go over there to congratulate the new, democratically elected government. And while he's there he should remind them all of his pro-Israel stance, just to see what reaction he gets. That's be interesting. Then he could start "Operation Freedom from... uh... democracy", and invade Palestine.

Can you imagine that? He'd never do it, he's too much of a coward. But, on the bright side, he'd probably never make it out.

 

[cableguy]

i would like to second everything preferred said about jessie... he was all about himself, and the legislature did give him a fair shake... he had a bad habit of abandoning things he campaigned on, though... who voted for him?? most of the folks i know, myself included... lesson learned... there is a libertarian candidate running for governor this year up here who may have a chance... she has some name recognition, and led the fight against the rather unpopular smoking bans recently foisted upon us here... good luck to you, sue jeffers... oh, and she owns a bar...

internationally... china is big and growing now, but it wont last... the three gorges dam is due to have its reservoir filled sometime in 2009... shortly before, or shortly after, i believe it will probably fail, which will kill millions... the chinese economy is in the same type of growth the US was in during the 90s--unsustainable.. it will fall, but no one knows when... china is a potential threat now, but will ultimately be its own undoing in the near future... chairman mao is to thank for that...

hamas... this one is actually very simple... the existance of a democratically elected government is good... there is absolutely nothing that makes a democratically elected government one that should be or needs to be supported... President Bush was quite clear about what hamas needs to do to get any support whatsoever, and time alone will shine a light on the future of hamas and the palestenian government... meanwhile, past deeds speak louder than present words.. terrorists, no matter what type of government spawned them, need to be killed...

 

[mindido]

If anyone has an interest, turn on C-SPAN and listen to the Gonzalez testimony before the Senate on domestic spying. Its becoming very clear that Gonzalez is trying to CHA and that Bush should be impeached and jailed for this.

 

[cableguy]

if thats what you want to hear, go right ahead... what stood out to me was the repeated theme "the law is not being broken." your dear leader and three Presidents before him used the same techniques, which were legal then, and legal now... (this does not include the collection of fbi files on political enemies for unannounced use) every President from Carter forward had and used this ability...

unless you are on the phone with a known terrorist, your conversation is safe... if you are on the phone with a known terrorist, i believe the government is within its rights to wonder why...

 

[mindido]

lumbaugh,

References?

 

[Preferred User]

your dear leader and three Presidents before him used the same techniques, which were legal then, and legal now...

News to me. My understanding is that previous presidents got a judge's writ within 72 hours. In fact even Ashcroft saw this as a change he wasn't comfortable with.

unless you are on the phone with a known terrorist, your conversation is safe...

This is the most troubling justification. You have given politicians (of both parties....you are setting a precedent here) the right to judge the difference between a political opponent and a terrorist. This administration has said, many times, that a vote for its opponents is a vote for the terrorists. I don't trust any administration, and this administration in particular, to be prosecutor, judge and jury.

 

[mindido]

Well, well. Seems Karl Rove is trying to force Republicans to not vote for further inquiry into the NSA problem. And this is coming from a conservative publication:

http://www.insightmag.com/

I haven't seen the full article (one has to register) but I have found a few quotes:

"The White House has been twisting arms to ensure that no Republican member votes against President Bush in the Senate Judiciary Committee’s investigation of the administration's unauthorized wiretapping. Congressional sources said Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove has threatened to blacklist any Republican who votes against the president. The sources said the blacklist would mean a halt in any White House political or financial support of senators running for re-election in November. "It's hardball all the way," a senior GOP congressional aide said."

"…They said the defection of even a handful of Republican committee members could result in a determination that the president violated the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Such a determination could lead to impeachment proceedings."

Hmmmmm, Rove's arm twisting apparently isn't having the desired effect:

"A House Republican whose subcommittee oversees the National Security Agency broke ranks with the White House on Tuesday and called for a full Congressional inquiry into the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping program."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/02/07/republican-overseeing-nsa_n_15275.html

Man, its Tricky Dick all over again.