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Future of Politics

ouch... its 2am...

with the current government we have, the dems are the brakes... if they are the engine, the car has been stolen and stripped, and the engine is nowhere near the rest of the car...

i like having the republicans control the Presidency and both houses of congress... IF, and only IF they start acting like republicans, and start acting like they are in control... i am sick of runaway spending... if they cannot reign it in, i would much prefer nothing getting done, for a government that accomplishes less, harms me less...

i did a little looking, and apparently, i am a pragmatist... if there is not any evidence that something will be beneficial, it should not be done... certain exceptions in the area of innovation must be exempt from this line of thinking, but it SHOULD be applied to every single line item in every bill congress considers...

having the runner up assume the office of vice president, as was once done, i feel is a bad idea, because all one would have to do to change the direction of the country completely is assassinate the President... in the 1700s, this wasnt so much of an issue, but i do not trust the times we live in that greatly... one nutcase with a disregard for his/her own life should not be able to alter the government that drastically...

anyways, back to open mindedness, pragmatism, and liberalism... i am a classic liberal, which is the opposite of what one refers to as a liberal today... as stated above, i am also largely a pragmatist...

as for open mindedness, for example, i have considered the validity of the arguments surrounding the theory of global warming (featured in another thread), and have found them lacking...

noted, considered, rejected...

i have also done the same with the idea of the national sales tax... i was heavily in favor of it, until i remembered one small problem... in the Constitution, congress has the ability to levy taxes... with this in mind, i now reject the idea of a national sales tax, and instead support a flat tax, UNLESS, the provision regarding the ability of congress to levy taxes is amended to be removed.. in laymans terms, if there is a constitutional amendment passed that outlaws the ability of congress to do anything with taxes, i support a national sales tax...

noted, considered, adopted...

proof to one and all that i DO change my mind when offered a better alternative...
 
Heres something to read when you are bored/have a lot of time on your hands

For Education and Discussion Only. Not for Commercial Use.


SECTION 102 of the new Patriot Act ll states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.


A Brief Analysis of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003
- Also Known as USA Patriot Act II

Congressman Ron Paul (R-Tex) told the Washington Times that no member of Congress was allowed to read the first Patriot Act that was passed by the House on October 27, 2001. The first Patriot Act was universally decried by civil libertarians and Constitutional scholars from across the political spectrum. William Safire, while writing for the New York Times, described the first Patriot Act's powers by saying that President Bush was "seizing dictatorial control." On February 7, 2003 the Center for Public Integrity, a non-partisan public interest think-tank in DC, revealed the full text of the Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003. The classified document had been leaked to them by an unnamed source inside the Federal government. The document consisted of a 33 page section by section analysis of the accompanying 87 page bill.

The bill itself is stamped "Confidential - Not for Distribution." Upon reading the analysis and bill, I was stunned by the scientifically crafted tyranny contained in the legislation. The Justice Department Office of Legislative Affairs admits that they had indeed covertly transmitted a copy of the legislation to Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, (R-Il) and the Vice President of the United States, Dick Cheney as well as the executive heads of federal law enforcement agencies.

It is important to note that no member of Congress was allowed to see the first Patriot Act before its passage, and that no debate was tolerate by the House and Senate leadership. The intentions of the White House and Speaker Hastert concerning Patriot Act II appear to be a carbon copy replay of the events that led to the unprecedented passage of the first Patriot Act.

There are two glaring areas that need to be looked at concerning this new legislation:

1. The secretive tactics being used by the White House and Speaker Hastert to keep even the existence of this legislation secret would be more at home in Communist China than in the United States. The fact that Dick Cheney publicly managed the steamroller passage of the first Patriot Act, ensuring that no one was allowed to read it and publicly threatening members of Congress that if they didn't vote in favor of it that they would be blamed for the next terrorist attack, is by the White House's own definition terrorism. The move to clandestinely craft and then bully passage of any legislation by the Executive Branch is clearly an impeachable offense.

2. The second Patriot Act is a mirror image of powers that Julius Caesar and Adolf Hitler gave themselves. Whereas the First Patriot Act only gutted the First, Third, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and seriously damaged the Seventh and the Tenth, the Second Patriot Act reorganizes the entire Federal government as well as many areas of state government under the dictatorial control of the Justice Department, the Office of Homeland Security and the FEMA NORTHCOM military command. The Domestic Security Enhancement Act 2003, also known as the Second Patriot Act is by its very structure the definition of dictatorship.

I challenge all Americans to study the new Patriot Act and to compare it to the Constitution, Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence. Ninety percent of the act has nothing to do with terrorism and is instead a giant Federal power-grab with tentacles reaching into every facet of our society. It strips American citizens of all of their rights and grants the government and its private agents total immunity. Here is a quick thumbnail sketch of just some of the draconian measures encapsulated within this tyrannical legislation:

SECTION 501 (Expatriation of Terrorists) expands the Bush administration's "enemy combatant" definition to all American citizens who "may" have violated any provision of Section 802 of the first Patriot Act. (Section 802 is the new definition of domestic terrorism, and the definition is "any action that endangers human life that is a violation of any Federal or State law.") Section 501 of the second Patriot Act directly connects to Section 125 of the same act. The Justice Department boldly claims that the incredibly broad Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act isn't broad enough and that a new, unlimited definition of terrorism is needed.

Under Section 501 a US citizen engaging in lawful activities can be grabbed off the street and thrown into a van never to be seen again. The Justice Department states that they can do this because the person "had inferred from conduct" that they were not a US citizen. Remember Section 802 of the First USA Patriot Act states that any violation of Federal or State law can result in the "enemy combatant" terrorist designation.

SECTION 201 of the second Patriot Act makes it a criminal act for any member of the government or any citizen to release any information concerning the incarceration or whereabouts of detainees. It also states that law enforcement does not even have to tell the press who they have arrested and they never have to release the names.

SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of "suspected terrorists" and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as "terrorist." These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

SECTION 312 gives immunity to law enforcement engaging in spying operations against the American people and would place substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board.

SECTION 101 will designate individual terrorists as foreign powers and again strip them of all rights under the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 102 states clearly that any information gathering, regardless of whether or not those activities are illegal, can be considered to be clandestine intelligence activities for a foreign power. This makes news gathering illegal.

SECTION 103 allows the Federal government to use wartime martial law powers domestically and internationally without Congress declaring that a state of war exists.

SECTION 106 is bone-chilling in its straightforwardness. It states that broad general warrants by the secret FSIA court (a panel of secret judges set up in a star chamber system that convenes in an undisclosed location) granted under the first Patriot Act are not good enough. It states that government agents must be given immunity for carrying out searches with no prior court approval. This section throws out the entire Fourth Amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures.

SECTION 109 allows secret star chamber courts to issue contempt charges against any individual or corporation who refuses to incriminate themselves or others. This sections annihilate the last vestiges of the Fifth Amendment.

SECTION 110 restates that key police state clauses in the first Patriot Act were not sunsetted and removes the five year sunset clause from other subsections of the first Patriot Act. After all, the media has told us: "This is the New America. Get used to it. This is forever."

SECTION 111 expands the definition of the "enemy combatant" designation.

SECTION 122 restates the government's newly announced power of "surveillance without a court order."

SECTION 123 restates that the government no longer needs warrants and that the investigations can be a giant dragnet-style sweep described in press reports about the Total Information Awareness Network. One passage reads, "thus the focus of domestic surveillance may be less precise than that directed against more conventional types of crime."

*Note: Over and over again, in subsection after subsection, the second Patriot Act states that its new Soviet-type powers will be used to fight international terrorism, domestic terrorism and other types of crimes. Of course the government has already announced in Section 802 of the first USA Patriot act that any crime is considered domestic terrorism.

SECTION 126 grants the government the right to mine the entire spectrum of public and private sector information from bank records to educational and medical records. This is the enacting law to allow ECHELON and the Total Information Awareness Network to break down any and all walls of privacy. The government states that they must look at everything to "determine" if individuals or groups might have a connection to terrorist groups. As you can now see, you are guilty until proven innocent.

SECTION 127 allows the government to takeover coroners' and medical examiners' operations whenever they see fit. See how this is like Bill Clinton's special medical examiner he had in Arkansas that ruled that people had committed suicide when their arms and legs had been cut off.

SECTION 128 allows the Federal government to place gag orders on Federal and State Grand Juries and to take over the proceedings. It also disallows individuals or organizations to even try to quash a Federal subpoena. So now defending yourself will be a terrorist action.

SECTION 129 destroys any remaining whistle blower protection for Federal agents.

SECTION 202 allows corporations to keep secret their activities with toxic biological, chemical or radiological materials.

SECTION 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them can be considered a terrorist. This should be very useful for Dick Cheney to stop anyone investigating Haliburton.

SECTION 303 sets up national DNA database of suspected terrorists. The database will also be used to "stop other unlawful activities." It will share the information with state, local and foreign agencies for the same purposes.

SECTION 311 federalizes your local police department in the area of information sharing.

SECTION 313 provides liability protection for businesses, especially big businesses that spy on their customers for Homeland Security, violating their privacy agreements. It goes on to say that these are all preventative measures - has anyone seen Minority Report? This is the access hub for the Total Information Awareness Network.

SECTION 321 authorizes foreign governments to spy on the American people and to share information with foreign governments.

SECTION 322 removes Congress from the extradition process and allows officers of the Homeland Security complex to extradite American citizens anywhere they wish. It also allows Homeland Security to secretly take individuals out of foreign countries.

SECTION 402 is titled "Providing Material Support to Terrorism." The section reads that there is no requirement to show that the individual even had the intent to aid terrorists.

SECTION 403 expands the definition of weapons of mass destruction to include any activity that affects interstate or foreign commerce.

SECTION 404 makes it a crime for a terrorist or "other criminals" to use encryption in the commission of a crime.

SECTION 408 creates "lifetime parole" (basically, slavery) for a whole host of crimes.

SECTION 410 creates no statute of limitations for anyone that engages in terrorist actions or supports terrorists. Remember: any crime is now considered terrorism under the first Patriot Act.

SECTION 411 expands crimes that are punishable by death. Again, they point to Section 802 of the first Patriot Act and state that any terrorist act or support of terrorist act can result in the death penalty.

SECTION 421 increases penalties for terrorist financing. This section states that any type of financial activity connected to terrorism will result to time in prison and $10-50,000 fines per violation.

SECTION 427 sets up asset forfeiture provisions for anyone engaging in terrorist activities. There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

There are many other sections that I did not cover in the interest of time. The American people were shocked by the despotic nature of the first Patriot Act. The second Patriot Act dwarfs all police state legislation in modern world history.

Usually, corrupt governments allow their citizens lots of wonderful rights on paper, while carrying out their jackbooted oppression covertly. From snatch and grab operations to warantless searches, Patriot Act II is an Adolf Hitler wish list.

You can understand why President Bush/Dick Cheney & Dennis Hastert want to keep this legislation secret not just from Congress, but the American people as well. Bill Allison, Managing Editor of the Center for Public Integrity, the group that broke this story, stated on my radio show that it was obvious that they were just waiting for another terrorist attack to opportunistically get this new bill through. He then shocked me with an insightful comment about how the Federal government was crafting this so that they could go after the American people in general. He also agreed that the FBI has been quietly demonizing patriots and Christians and those who carry around pocket Constitutions.

I have produced two documentary films and written a book about what really happened on September 11th. The bottom line is this: the military-industrial complex carried the attacks out as a pretext for control. Anyone who doubts this just hasn?t looked at the mountains of hard evidence.

Of course, the current group of white collar criminals in the White House might not care that were finding out the details of their next phase. Because, after all, when smallpox gets released, or more buildings start blowing up, the President can stand up there at his lectern suppressing a smirk, squeeze out a tear or two, and tell us that See I was right. I had to take away your rights to keep you safe. And now it's your fault that all of these children are dead. From that point on, if anyone criticizes tyranny they will be shouted down by the paid talking head government mouthpieces in the mainstream media.

You have to admit, its a beautiful script. Unfortunately, it's being played out in the real world. If we don't get the word out that government is using terror to control our lives while doing nothing to stop the terrorists, we will deserve what we get - tyranny. But our children won't deserve it.

HOW THE PATRIOT ACT COMPARES TO
HITLERS ERMÄCHTIGUNGSGESETZ (ENABLING ACT):

At http://www.furnitureforthepeople.com/actpat.htm
you can read the following 4 Articles:

1) How Patriot Act Compares to Hitler's Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act)
2) A 21st Century Comparison of The Enabling Act and The Patriot Act
3) Ten Key Dangers of The Patriot Act that Every American Should Know
4) Bill Moyers' NOW Comments on the Patriot Act

~~Please tell your congress and senators to repeal the Patriot Act and to throw out current legislation advocating a second act.

Thank You, for your support!

Source:
http://www.rickieleejones.com/political/patriotact.htm

additional resources:

Citizens for Legitimate Government
http://legitgov.org

American Civil Liberties Union
http://aclu.org

Electronic Frontiers Foundation
http://eff.org

National Lawyers Guild
http://nlg.org

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/11/303979.shtml

Originated From : http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Number=293119064

Discuss!
 
you had me until close to the end... i took the liberty of not only reading your post in its entireity, but clicking all of your resource links as well... i then checked at the websites for cato and the heritage foundation, as well as a number of other sites that are conservative but publicly and loudly opposed some provisions in the patriot act...

i found not even a scant mention of the existance of ANYTHING in your post there...

i googled "new patriot act", and was rewarded with michael moore, the aclu, and various conspiracy websites...

until october of this year, i didnt like the aclu, but generally trusted them to have facts straight... this october, the aclu filed a lawsuit in either hennepin or ramsey or anoka county in minnesota, regarding billboards that stated "dont vote." the lawsuit claimed to disenfranchise minority voters, even though the billboards were located in every type of area (rich, poor, black, hispanic, white, asian)... a couple weeks passed, and the billboards were altered by the buyer of the ad... it seems a local radio station, kdwb, had pulled a publicity stunt... the new billboards urged people to not vote for a dj of theirs, as it would be a wasted vote... to date, i have heard not a whisper of a retraction, an "oops", or anything related to this nonsense... as a result, i have come to the conclusion that not only is the aclu a bunch of lawyers who are sorely misguided on many issues, but that they cannot be trusted with facts, or anything else of a serious nature...

the link to the eff was the only one that wasnt blatant in its ultimate goal, the election of more democrats... i havent dug too deeply into that site as of this posting, and may not, but i feel i should give the one listed site that may have some legitimacy its due...

back to the aclu... i found an "analysis" of this alleged patriot act 2 dated feb 14, 2003... this makes it nearly two years old... again, conservatives, not to be confused with republicans, came out in droves against certain provisions in the patriot act... why can i find NOTHING about this alleged second edition on ANY of those sites???

please post any clarification you can on this issue, and please let me know why i have to go to a liberal website to see anything about this... if this is a legitimate issue, all champions of freedon, regardless of party affiliation, would be attacking the bill (if it exists)...
 
Let me just clarify: This is not my opinion, I found this on another forum and thought it would make a good discussion point. I have no feelings on the matter since I am not a US citizen. If the data is out of date I apologize.

Alright, you can carry on arguing now......
 
not your fault, pman... and though the info is out of date, several of the aforementioned sites have more recent "updates" on the matter...
 
bo041125.gif
 
Here's an email I got today.

Not to political, but I guess it could fall into the category of gun control issues.


Marine Corp's General Reinwald was interviewed on the
radio the other day and you have to read his reply to the lady
who interviewed him concerning guns and children. Regardless
of how you feel about gun laws you gotta love this!!!!

This is one of the best comeback lines of all time. It is a
portion of National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a
female broadcaster and US Marine Corps General Reinwald
who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military
installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things
are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?

GENERAL REINWALD: We're going to teach them climbing,
canoeing, archery, and shooting.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible,
isn't it?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see why, they'll be properly
supervised on the rifle range.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: Don't you admit that this is a terribly
dangerous activity to be teaching children?

GENERAL REINWALD: I don't see how. We will be teaching
them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: But you're equipping them to become
violent killers.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be
a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

The radio went silent and the interview ended.

You gotta love the Marines!
 
Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere, but this is where it was discussed before the election, and admit I havent kept up with this thread since the election, but to all those who said they have talked to people in Iraq and they said the war was goin well was either lyin or talkin to the minority...

"You have to go to war with the army you have" ~ Donald Rumsfeld

We're fuckin America, we should have whatever army we need, at the very least, ARMOR!

Carry on fellas...
 
"You have to go to war with the army you have" ~ Donald Rumsfeld

We're fuckin America, we should have whatever army we need, at the very least, ARMOR!

Replied to in the Iraq/War Thread, my take seemed to fit better there.

GENERAL REINWALD: Well, Ma'am, you're equipped to be
a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?

, but this is of the greatest things I've ever heard! Semper Fi!
 
wow... thats putting an awful lot of presumed thoughts into a mind unknown to the author... typically liberal, assuming the worst of people, telling them how they should live their lives... how ironic it would be if the author ended up in an accident with an excursion... if he lived, i daresay he might get one of his own...

for a class of people (liberals), who constantly preach safety, and that nothing should exist that could cause us harm, one would think large vehicles, and their inherent safety, would be championed... not so, which shows that human life is not nearly as precious as other things... please leave abortion out of any responses, as that is most definitely NOT a direction i have intended to go on this one...

i will choose to own and drive whatever vehicle i want to... if i want a large suv for added safety to myself and my family, i will jolly well get one... and unless i am using it for a business, i wont take a tax writeoff for it.. perhaps i will acquire an excursion, or a suburban, or a yukon xl and start up a business around it... with the cost of the vehicle being a business expense, and therefore a tax writeoff, i could even hire a couple folks... funny how that can work, isnt it??

common dreams??? certainly not common to me, or to most of this country...
 
cableguy said:
for a class of people (liberals), who constantly preach safety, and that nothing should exist that could cause us harm, one would think large vehicles, and their inherent safety, would be championed

and

cableguy said:
i will choose to own and drive whatever vehicle i want to... if i want a large suv for added safety to myself and my family, i will jolly well get one

This argument is fatally flawed, because SUVs are far more prone to rollovers than any other vehicle on the market. SUVs are not only a danger to its occupants, but to those who drive while SUVs are on the road (reducing roadway vision for car drivers, rolling over and causing accidents, and intimidating other drivers into taking a wider berth away from the vehicle).

If one was to preach safety and believe they are promoting road safety while being an SUV driver, it would be blatant hypocrisy and a display of true ignorance.
 
Ignorance goes hand in hand with "I'll do what i want, screw you, i'm American," don't ya think?

All the years I have been interested in American politics and society it never fails to amaze me how many people pull out a statement like that, or something like it, and assume the person who questions whether or not just because you can do something, you should.

Safety is one thing, but living in a society is something opposed to being safe, there's a pretty blatant dichotomy there. The more people you live around, the more likely one of those people will cause you harm, statistically and so on. It's a trade off, be safe, but don't shoot me in the head so you can feel sure I won't stab you. In the same way, don't drive a huge car and screw up the environment for the rest of us so you can feel safe, that's petty, no?

But of course, the American way of life is one of worship to the "go it alone entrepreneur." Pollute my air, poison my water, and kill my children to steal my oil, but please, be safe.

Wow, I'm getting put through the grinder for that one!
 
In vehicle versus vehicle accidents, suv's tend to be "safer" for its occupants, i.e. less sever injuries / deaths than cars or trucks. Reason why is obvious, same reason the crew of an Abrams tank comes off less scarred when it runs over well anything else. Size and mass, the larger creates more damage while taking on less.
Plus, there is the actual height issue. When an

Excursion/Yukon/Escalade/Monstrosity hits a smaller vehicle, it impacts ABOVE the smaller cars bumper = crucial damage and or injury to little car, while the Yukon takes the force on the bumper where it is supposed to be.

I hate SUVs but not for the full efficiency issue, i could care less, it isn't a precious resource unless we're burning it up. I hate them because (this dealing with the roll over rates Iceberg mentioned) they have to be driven slow, cautious, and even more so around turns. I've said it before, I'm saying it again I hate people who come to near dead stops for turning! Anything below 60mph on an expressway off ramp is inexcusable! Summary: Huge cars = safe, maybe, for its passengers, but dangerous for anyone outside; speaking purely on mass and physics alone.

Then there is my skewed hatred of them for the people who drive them. 1) Women with mad penis envy. 2) Black college students, who hold up the financial aid line for 1/2 an hour complaining how they can't pay their tuition, but then get into a $60,000+ Escalade-esque SUV, complete with gold accents, tinted windows, chromed wheels, etc. ... But that gets into another discussion away from suvs :evil: .

In my mind (this plays off the safety and proximity deals) cars, especially large ones a la SUVs (and F-350s w/o trailer hitches :? ), are more of a death hazard than guns to the public. Easier to obtain, everyone can get 3, capable of multiple hits at once, and easier to get back into circulation. All i had to say about that.

I won't throw you in the grinder ophidian, the only part of what you said i disagree with is "kill my children to steal my oil". I'm sick of this Iraq is a war for oil bullshit. If it was, we would have stopped in the south, avoided Baghdad, Fallujah, and Najaf altogether. Perhaps this is my view because I am a "go it alone entrepreneur worshipping" American, but there are many more pertanent problems facing the world today than pollution. Pollution will decline until we find out (as is always the case) there is a negative side to our new "clean" ways.
 
thanks, oscar...

rollovers dont happen frequently... what DOES happen frequently is a one car hits something stationary or one car hits another car... in EITHER of these cases, the occupants of a large car or a suv are DEMONSTRABLY and SIGNIFIGANTLY safer than those in a spec... a spec, for those who dont know, is the shoebox sized car that the greenies want us all to drive.. fits in a shoebox, has no power, is incapable of highway speeds, but gets 50 mpg... worthless...

it is still mostly jealousy, envy, and class warfare... do what you think is right, but leave me and my life the hell alone... your rights END where mine begin....
 
so what exactly does all this have to do with the future of politics?

Jeb '08!
 
Xtremely_buff said:
so what exactly does all this have to do with the future of politics?

Good point. You guys are really reaching for some shit to argue about. :lol:

Xtremely_buff said:

Hilarious. Not gonna happen.

Rudy '08 8) Wait, that's four fucking years away. Alot can happen in four years.
 
Supafly said:
Rudy '08 8) Wait, that's four fucking years away. Alot can happen in four years.

I hope we have a Rudy '08

I drive a F350 and my wife drives an Excursion, both with replacement brush guard pipe bumpers, and great insurance, so bring on the little escorts, metros, etc. I will gladly go head to head with you.
 
Texan said:
Supafly said:
Rudy '08 8) Wait, that's four fucking years away. Alot can happen in four years.

I hope we dont have a Ruby '08 J/K bro...

Ha Ha everyone look at Tex he can't spell. Laugh at him. 8) 8) :lol:
 
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