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War In Iraq/Terrorists

mindido

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Karifan,

Well, when you get some time, I'd recommend going back through the thread and reading what you can. You'll get an idea of where we all stand on the subject and find that we've said alot. Which is why the discussion has simmered down.
 

mindido

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endymion said:
How much longer can Guantanamo survive?

endy,

Man, talk about a difficult question. Granted, the place shouldn't exist. But, I think there is no doubt that there are some really bad people out there that want nothing more than to kill every last one of us. Their view appears to be that if your not Islamic (and even not the right type of Islamic) then you're an infidel and not worth the air your currently breathing. So what do you do with someone like that?

My main problem with the place is that the people down there need to have their day in open court (not a military tribunal). Some of them will be found to be very bad people and should then be sent back to wherever they came from. More than likely, they won't last the night, but, with such people, what can you do?

It also appears that there are others that were probably at the wrong place at the wrong time. A good trial should be able to discover who those people are and they should be let go.

But I guess the main problem is that the place is a real black hole and is another reason the US's stature around the world continues to decline. For a people that profess so profusely in a belief in the law, these people have no access to any of it. It makes the US look very hypocritical.
 
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t3sqr

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I received this email from a friend in the Army. It is rather long, but does sum up with a kind of slap in the face the reasons for the military action in the middle East.

Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation. It's also eerily applicable to other current issues (Iran's nudear program, Immigration, NAFTA's impact on American jobs, trade deficits, etc.). I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts *.. so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical center in San Antonio. So he Is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about! (the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.) If you would like to see who this fellow is, go to the Air Force web sight and look him up.

Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA: A different spin on Iraq war. This WAR is for REAL!
by Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired


To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII). The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means.

First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;

* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;

* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;

* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;

* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;

* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;

* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;

* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;

* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;

* New York World Trade Center 2001;

* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide) .

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush-1, Clinton and Bush-2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World?
25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (Including 7,000 Polish priests). Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others. Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way – their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else. The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims.

What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions:

We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean? It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was, clearly, for terrorists to attack us until we were neutered and submissive to them. We would, of course, have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see; we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished. The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish, as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslim terrorists, how could anyone else? The radical Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we
continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.
President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently.

And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head. Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause. Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.


Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can. To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude, of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world. We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! We can't!

If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire. If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve. Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece. And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that include the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!
 

Duke E. Pyle

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People seem to think that terrorism is in a box in a foreign land with a few scattered pieces here and there. The threat isn't real, it isn't growing, it'll never happen. They can only see that there wasn't any wmd's found. You robots are becoming the threat and that's scary. Those damn warning colors are just a joke. It WILL happen again, and again if something isn't done. Thank goodness this is all a dream man. Grandma's secret recipe is in danger over wire tapping, we must raise hell. If 50,000 People were employed to the NSA what do you think the chances of your phone call being monitored is? Half a percent? I'll never understand it.
 

mindido

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You know, t3sqr, you really ought to learn a bit about research, and how to do it. It can help make sure that you don't wind up looking foolish and at least appear to know what your talking about. Case in point:

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/soapbox/chong.asp

The above link clearly states that Dr. Chong did not write the article (which makes sense because of the grammer, omission of certain info and obvious biases) but only passed it on via his email (which is how his name became attached to it). A quote from the site:

"Origins: The above-quoted essay about the war on terrorism is yet one more example of misattribution through e-mail forwarding. Although USAF Major General Vernon Chong is indeed a real person, the essay was not written by him; it was something he came across and forwarded to an acquaintance via e-mail, thereby attaching his name to it and inadvertently causing other recipients to erroneously assume he was its author.

This essay began circulating back in mid-2004 under the title "THE WORLD SITUATION — A LETTER TO MY SONS," with the following opening:

This was written by a retired attorney, to his sons, May 19, 2004...."

Sooooooo, misattribution. Not a real big deal, it happens with those unused to checking, and double checking, their facts. But gosh, darn, golly, look what I also found! It seems plaigerism is also a part of your modus operandi. The paragraph below is from the following website:

http://www.hildaterry.com/thiswarisreal.html

"I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about! (the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.)"

And now, here's your paragraph:

"Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation. It's also eerily applicable to other current issues (Iran's nudear program, Immigration, NAFTA's impact on American jobs, trade deficits, etc.). I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts *.. so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical center in San Antonio. So he Is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about! (the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.) If you would like to see who this fellow is, go to the Air Force web sight and look him up.

Look familiar???? You know, t3sqr, if you were to have handed this in at a credible school or college, you would now be kicked out the door. Plaigerism is a serious offense.

Well, we now have a clear example of what "honor" really means to some on the right.

I was, actually, going to critique some of the points made in the article. Some I actually agree with, but many are so far out in right field that they need correcting. But, after finding the above, I've wasted enough time on this.

And Duke,

Thought you had fallen off the face of the planet.
 

Karifan

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Karifan

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Until i see proof Texan, i dont believe they have found anything. Why should i take their word anyways? Just about everything this administration has said about the iraq war has been false. Also, why would they wait 3 years to tell us they found stuff? I would think they would of told us sooner. Especially since they are getting so much heat about the war. Considering one of the sites you listed is FOX News just makes me believe it less.
 

mindido

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Tex,

Yeah, I see Faux News is all over that story, interviewing Rick Santorum left and right. But there seem to be some real problems with it (considering that the administration claimed there were "stockpiles" of these weapons). The data is pretty cloudy at the moment, but apparently all of these are pre 1991 (the first Gulf War) so are in such decrepit condition that they would never have worked. Some of them were actually found in the burned out piles left from when the UN burned the weapons. And, in addition, a military spokesman interviewed on the subject didn't want to say anything about it.

And lastly, don't you know, that if there were really something to this, Bush and Cheney would be all over this also. They'd be crowing like theres no tomorrow. This smells, to me, like a desperate attempt by the right to win over a few dolts that have difficulty seeing (or remembering) reality. None of this even comes close to "stockpiles".
 

Duke E. Pyle

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"Eyup, sounds like things are definitely improving over there"

Looks like it depends on who you talk to doesn't it?

What will yall do if you can't ask "where are the wmd's"? That infamous, unimportant, kindergarden, liberal, close minded, bullshit of a question. The conspiracy begins now.
 

mindido

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Duke E. Pyle said:
Looks like it depends on who you talk to doesn't it?

Duke,

So who should know more about whats happening in Baghdad and who should we believe? The US ambassador? Who is there almost 24/7, has to deal on a daily basis with employees and their problems, has to deal with rebuilding a country in the midst of a civil war, etc, etc?

Or GW? Who lied to get us into this place! He lied about WMD's, Al Quaeda influence with Iraq, nuclear capabilities, aluminum tubes, surveilling US citizens without a warrant, etc. etc. To tell you the truth, I don't think GW knows how to tell the truth.

And more importantly, what are their motives? Kalilzad's (as best we can tell) are to protect his employees and give the administration a good idea of what is happening in the country. GW's are to try and boost his in the crapper poll ratings and try to make sure the Democrats don't take over the House and Senate in the fall.

So, who should we believe? Seems pretty clear to me who's telling the truth.

What will yall do if you can't ask "where are the wmd's"? That infamous, unimportant, kindergarden, liberal, close minded, bullshit of a question. The conspiracy begins now.

I think you'd better check you facts Duke. The subject was brought up again by Republican Senator Rick Santorum of PA. As it turns out, he's in serious danger of losing his senate seat (he's currently 18 points behind to his challenger). What was his motive? To try and save his ass with people of less intelligence amongst his electorate. It remains to be seen if it worked but you don't see the military backing him up (in fact, the spokesmen I've seen don't want anything to do with his claims) or even Bush and Cheney. Do you really think that those two clowns wouldn't be crowing about this, at every opportunity, if it were true?

Wake up Duke, your being played like a fiddle. Karl Rove dreams up a talking point, and we shortly thereafter hear it out of you.
 

crownedking

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Not sure if this belongs here but.......What do you think of the situation in North Korea?
I feel this is going to turn into another war. They (North Koreans) are to unpredictable and just don't give a shit about the rest of the world.
 

war|forever

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It's interesting how incredibily diplomatic we become when a country's actually armed.
 

Iceberg

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Just a quick post with some startling information:

Who's Really
Killing Iraqis?

The Real 2006
'Iraq Body Count'

Iraqi civilians killed this year by Islamic Terrorists
5,221

Iraqi civilians killed collaterally by Americans
51*

*Source: IraqBodyCount.net (includes civilians caught in crossfire who may have been killed by the terrorists)

From: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com (Caution: material may offend some readers/viewers and may be considered by some to be "politically incorrect".)
 

mindido

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crowned,

Not sure how I missed your question but better late than never. I'm gonna have to go along with war on this one. It is quite interesting to note the difference in the way this administration is handling N. Korea at the moment. Somewhat with kid gloves and certainly not as belligerantly as the situation in the Middle East.

I'm not really that certain that N. Korea is really that much of a threat to the US. They certainly are to S. Korea and Japan but, it seems to me, that Kim Jong Il just gets a bit pissy when he's not on the front page so he'll do something to tick everyone off to get everyones attention. Kind of like a little kid. But, since he does appear to have nukes (but no missiles that will bet them very far) we will have to pay attention to him for a while.

And Ice,

Jeez, thought you had fallen off an ice flow or been eaten by a polar bear. :) Not sure how accurate any of the data is coming out of Iraq (I don't think any is) but it does seem that they're at the start of a "low level" civil war. But, oops, can't say that nasty term, the Bushies don't like it.
 

mindido

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Anyone interested in a high paying job in Iraq as a truck driver? Well, maybe you should check this out before signing the contract:

http://www.halliburtonwatch.org/news/ambush.html

If you haven't seen this, prepare yourself. Its a vid that some truck driver in Iraq took and it will keep you on the edge of your seat. This guys part of a large convoy which gets lost and has to turn around and go back through a town where the convoy was initially stoned. During the return trip the "insurgents" are now prepared and this time use small arms and IED's. Three of the drivers were killed (including one from just up the road from me) and several others were seriously wounded.

There's one nice scene (watch for it) where a bullet hole appears in the windshield all of a sudden and all hell appears to break loose.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you can watch either a long or short version. You may want to reconsider applying for that job in Iraq.
 
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