Future of Politics

[Your_Ass]

@texan

I am sorry that you poses such a dislike for christian and christianity, just be thankful you live in the United States of America, but you are now walking on my fighting side.
Due to rules of this forum I will leave it at that.
GOD knows what I want to really say.

hahah how christian of you.

Religion did not play a role in the election, polls are bullshit, and they proved that this year, they are in no way scientific and you should not place any faith in them.

You didn't really offer anything in that post, HOW were eixt polls proven to be bullshit this election? You cant just STATE your claim without support and expect it to be valid in an argument.

EDIT: some quoting problems (it was early)

 

[Your_Ass]

@supafly

True, but I can imply what these numbers mean. Just like you did.

what exactly would you imply? I’m not implying anything that the facts don’t back up, you need to demonstrate that my reasoning is flawed. Please remember all I hope to prove is that religion played a part in this election (how big of a part is arguable).

The facts for my theory are correct, but the theory in it's self is far from logical. The point of my demonstration was to show you that you can infer a lot from these polls.

My theory is backed by the numbers just like yours. So it holds the exact same weight as yours, as ridiculous as it is.

I’m not sure what “theory” you’re talking about, if your theory is that non-college graduates support Bush, then it is neither ridiculous nor wrong. It is supported by the numbers. Just as my theory, that religion played a part in this election, is supported by the numbers (barring a couple speculations that are probably true, namely that evangelical Christians voted for bush BECAUSE of their religion, something that seems to be true from the “most important issue” question)

 

[Texan]

Early in the day of the election exit polls showed kerry with a 3 point lead in Florida and Ohio, and it was the exit polls that prevented the calling of these states that night. The media held on to the exit polls hoping that they were correct and thus delaying the election process.

Who is to say that the people who partake in exit polls are indeed telling the truth. The only poll that counts is the one in the ballot box. The proof you ask for is staring you in the face, look at the returns.

How can you call christianity bullshit without stating facts.

 

[Supafly]

@supafly

True, but I can imply what these numbers mean. Just like you did.

what exactly would you imply? I’m not implying anything that the facts don’t back up, you need to demonstrate that my reasoning is flawed. Please remember all I hope to prove is that religion played a part in this election (how big of a part is arguable).

The facts for my theory are correct, but the theory in it's self is far from logical. The point of my demonstration was to show you that you can infer a lot from these polls.

My theory is backed by the numbers just like yours. So it holds the exact same weight as yours, as ridiculous as it is.

I’m not sure what “theory” you’re talking about, if your theory is that non-college graduates support Bush, then it is neither ridiculous nor wrong. It is supported by the numbers. Just as my theory, that religion played a part in this election, is supported by the numbers (barring a couple speculations that are probably true, namely that evangelical Christians voted for bush BECAUSE of their religion, something that seems to be true from the “most important issue” question)

The point that you can't seem to grasp is that everything mentioned in the polls played a part in the election. But you seem to be focused on one. A segment that you have stated you dislike. Blue eyed people also played a role in the election. But, does that honestly matter?

I was implying that people that do not have a college degree voted for Bush because of that fact.(They don't have a college degree) which is absolutley ridiculous. Just like you implying people that voted for bush who are christians did so because they are christians.

 

[war|forever]

Welcome to the Nobody is Right, Nobody is Wrong 40+ Pages Thread :roll: :lol:

More like the "I'm right and here's 6 examples and you're wrong and here's why" thread. :roll: :lol: :lol:

 

[Da' Pimp]

Welcome to the Nobody is Right, Nobody is Wrong 40+ Pages Thread :roll: :lol:

More like the "I'm right and here's 6 examples and you're wrong and here's why" thread. :roll: :lol: :lol:

Politics........... :llama:

 

[jessicajoanne]

Welcome to the Nobody is Right, Nobody is Wrong 40+ Pages Thread :roll: :lol:

More like the "I'm right and here's 6 examples and you're wrong and here's why" thread. :roll: :lol: :lol:

Politics........... :llama:

I agree. They have invaded the chat room too.. haha. :llama: :llama:

 

[oscaraustin]

People, c’mon you can do better than this, essentially your big argument for “religion didn’t have an affect on this election” is that say that all surveys are shitty because they don’t ask everyone.

There have been many other arguments other than polls, you just refuse to acknowledge them, as we are refusing to acknowlege many of yours. Religion was a factor in the election, but it was only one of many other factors, all of which summed together causing the result. The impact of one factor independent of the others is impossible to calculate.

I'm in agreement with at least a few others i've seen here that we need to stop talking about just the religious toll in this election, especially seeing as how you, like a true politician/lawyer/debater, are bending what we say to, refusing to acknowledge things we say to you (you've done it at least 3 times to me where you have made me repeat word for word/ copy and paste a thought; two of which were obviously incomplete thoughts of mine, as your quotations of my statements ended in commas), and who is not willing to step outside this tiny box of religion into other factors which are just as important and interdependent with religion.

For about a page this topic was doing nicely with people posting new thoughts and opinions, but as with all political things it's just become figure pointing and my way is right, because i don't believe you.... stagnation is really the only word, nothing new in the last many many many posts. I'd try to take this off into a new direction, but i don't think it would be able to escape the gravity well created here.

 

[RyanA]

Here's what he's trying to say.

Example:

in 2000 48% of non college graduates voted for Bush (50,556,636)
in 2004 53% of non college graduates voted for Bush (61,379,235)

Voter turnout was up 9%

While the number of voters without college degrees who voted for Bush was up 18% (50/61)

So I say it wasn't the christians that won the election for bush but the people without Bachelor degrees. :roll:

I already posted this, but is relevant to this comment, so I will post again...
http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

 

[Da' Pimp]

Ashcroft is OUTATHERE!!!!!!

Links of Him saying "Bye-Bye Bitches":

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS...ions/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6446454/?GT1=5809

 

[Stingray]

@stingray

Jesus....did ya leave me with a lot to read here or what? Just gonna throw out a couple comments though....

Haha, sorry, the title of this thread should be, “Your_Ass is a long winded asshole”

p.s. stingray, what is the code to have the “Your_Ass Says” style quotes. I tried .

but that didn’t do it, any ideas?

Wow that was a long post…. sorry

~~~Okay, I'm having a lazy day here...so I'll answer top to bottom. Don't feel like breaking everything up. The stuff I didn't need to respond to has been deleted.

A) Long Posts:
nah...everyone's entited to sound off, right? It was more the numbers than anything. Stingray don't do numbers. :lol:

B) Post Code:
Yeah, that's usually how I do it.

 

[Your_Ass]

oscaraustin, we are in agreement, I'm not going to post anything of yours, I'm not going to try and argue, because we are in agreement (about my topic).

@supafly

The point that you can't seem to grasp is that everything mentioned in the polls played a part in the election.

I've never demonstrated that I don't easily grasp that point. But we're not talking about that ( I would never disagree with that statement). If you read through this whole thread, you'll find I have the same point as I always have. That religion played a part in this election. If you agree, as you seem to, then we are in agreement with the only real assertion I've made. I completely and utterly admit that, without cross-referenced exit polls, you CANNOT show exactly how much religion played a part. I however suspect that the group (if they are in line with the rest of the country) are the largest single political group (AGAIN, this isn't something that I'm going to argue, because this isn’t a fact, its a hypothesis that requires data to test).

Blue eyed people also played a role in the election. But, does that honestly matter?

No, because their blue-eyedness didn't play a part in this election. Religious people let the bible into the voting booth and that bothers me because I (along with science) think its largely bullshit (another thread another day Texan).

was implying that people that do not have a college degree voted for Bush because of that fact.(They don't have a college degree) which is absolutely ridiculous. Just like you implying people that voted for bush who are Christians did so because they are Christians.

Well, that may not be absolutely ridiculous, clearly further information is required but you can’t just call it ridiculous without any support. ( leap of logic fallacy, you leaped from an assertion, "people that voted for bush did so because they didn’t have a college degree" to a conclusion "that is ridiculous" without any connecting logic,
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Debating-1.html#Leap )


@texan

Early in the day of the election exit polls showed kerry with a 3 point lead in Florida and Ohio, and it was the exit polls that prevented the calling of these states that night. The media held on to the exit polls hoping that they were correct and thus delaying the election process.

We’ve been over this….

Who is to say that the people who partake in exit polls are indeed telling the truth. The only poll that counts is the one in the ballot box. The proof you ask for is staring you in the face, look at the returns.

http://www.exit-poll.net/
We’ve been over this too, the pollsters work for the VNS (voter news service) which is a collection of neutral news agencies, AP is at least objective and I think the “liberal media” is held in check by FNC, so I think they are pretty accurate. Also, not many people in the political world question their results ONCE THEY ARE COMPLETED. However, it is widely known that checking the “horse race” numbers before the poll is completed is a bad way to project winners, which is why the election was projected for Kerry in the first 3 hours (its also why what your talking about happened).

How can you call christianity bullshit without stating facts.

Because I’m not arguing “Christianity is Bullshit” in this thread, I’m arguing that religion played a part in this election in this thread.

@war

More like the "I'm right and here's 6 examples and you're wrong and here's why" thread

I’ll take that as a compliment

 

[Supafly]

can’t just call it ridiculous without any support. ( leap of logic fallacy, you leaped from an assertion, "people that voted for bush did so because they didn’t have a college degree" to a conclusion "that is ridiculous" without any connecting logic,
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Debating-1.html#Leap )

There is no connecting logic. That is the point.

I agree that religion played a role in this election. And probably every other election ever held. My problem with your argument is that you do make assumptions and then try to hide them behind logic. (By the way hope you pass the class.) And when someone else does the same your quick to refer them to your fallacy site.

You assume that christians voted the way they voted becasue they're christians. Not for any other reason. This is something that neither exit polls, logic nor a text book can prove.

And now I am done with this thread. As Pimp would say "It's starting to border on gayety!" :lol:

 

[oscaraustin]

Instead of arguing about if the religious right "stole the election for Bush." Let's talk about why that matters.

It shouldn't. They are Americans entitled to their own opinions as an atheist, liberal Christian, Jew, Muslim, scientologist, environmentalist, socialist, and on and on... All of these have their own ideologies, and every group is impacted by their own ways of thinking. If these evangelicals felt the need to uphold their moral beliefs and felt Bush was the man to do that, good for them, that is their right as voting Americans. Personally, I do not agree with a bunch of psycho-Christianity moral bombardment, but I am glad to have their alliance in the presidential vote.

IMO, voting on behalf of your moral judgment is better than voting for candidate#2 just because you do not like the first guy. I'm a new voter (age 21), I voted Bush because i agree with our involvement in Iraq first of all, I never once got a platform from Kerry... all he stood for was "Bush is bad", and i think most of the heat directed at Bush is bullshit and really his fault. (i.e. job outsourcing, companies decision to send jobs and govt. can't stop it, plus you can't tax a company for work done outside the country. And morally, the rest of the world needs the jobs more than this country).

So what if the evangelical population swung the vote with moral opinions, they are entitled to do that as American voters. American voters, voting for whatever reasons, voted Bush back into office.

 

[Your_Ass]

Good to hear its over, it was getting pretty stupid. Well, Oscar, they are entitled to their opinion, it’s when they tell my daughter who was raped that she cant have an abortion*, or when they tell my quadriplegic grandfather that he shouldn’t hold his breath over stems cell treatment$, or when they tell me that “the jury is still out” on evolution#.

Their rights stop at my nose, the second they infringe on my rights (over my body, mind and/or health) is when I (angrily) disagree.

Voting your morals is great, but it’s when you try to apply your morals to someone else that it ceases to be good. Remember, morals aren't universal, just because you think its wrong to do something, doesn’t mean everyone has to.

*(hypothetical, I’m 20 with 0 kids),
$(hypothetical, my grandpas are fine)
#(Bush quote)

This really isn’t an argument, I hope this doesn’t turn into another 30 posts. It’s just my opinion, if you don’t disagree that’s fine (there’ll be more topics later for that, trust me, just create the topic, state your controversial claim, and I’ll weigh in)

 

[oscaraustin]

Good to hear its over, it was getting pretty stupid. Well, Oscar, they are entitled to their opinion, it’s when they tell my daughter who was raped that she cant have an abortion*, or when they tell my quadriplegic grandfather that he shouldn’t hold his breath over stems cell treatment$, or when they tell me that “the jury is still out” on evolution#.

I firstly will say I am NOT disagreeing with you on this, I more or less agree with what you have said in this post. I'll reply bottom to top.

While, the scientific community etc. have more than enough evidence for evolution, people of faith have their own reasons for ignoring/denying that evidence. While i and others may find that somewhat annoying at times, it is their right to make their own decision and follow their own beliefs. I do not think the majority of Christians are anti-evolution anymore, many are beginning to intertwine evolution into their "god's plan theories". But both sides will always have the right to voice their grievances.

I have not done enough research into stem cell research to voice an educated opinion into it, so I'll pass on it. However, abortion I agree should be allowed in r@p3 situations. I am against it most other times, not because of a religious context, rather because I believe freedoms should carry consequence. You can do whatever you want, but there are consequences for your actions that you have to deal with. I'll leave that though, not the discussion at hand.

I think both sides, right and left / religious and liberal, need to start making use of more common sense in their application of their morals and beliefs. i.e. If a person is raped, they should not have to suffer consequence; they are the victim. Everyone is entitled to their own values, and one side will presumably always be a majority, but that majority does need to use their judgment to discern what is best and not recite foregone conclusions.

 

[Zinista]

Ok guys I wanna throw this one in.. Anyone wanna question Nostradamus' scriptures??

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[oscaraustin]

"come the millenium... yada yada... the village idiot will come forth to be acclaimed the leader."

But Kerry lost the election. :lol:

 

[war|forever]

Hahahhaha, that's awesome Zini 8)

 

[Dexterdoe]

You people just don't get it. This whole election is about one thing and one thing only. White power. The south is rising again. You don't hear people say 'the south will rise again' much anymore, but you never heard them say 'oh I guess it won't' either.

After 9-11 (Outsiders attacking the US) and homo-marriage, the up-tighty whitys got scared. The day will come when white christian will be the minority. They got scared and thought it was happening. They panicked and got off their asses and were heard. You think white man will go down without a fight, think again. I voted kerry, so this is not how i feel, I just see it in the tea leaves. Bush=rich man who still loves god and country and with all his money still lives on a ranch. Nascar racers who support him= rich white guys who love god and counrty and even though they have money, still drive winnabegos (sp?) You see the trend?

Think about the poor white guys of the old south. Poor as hell, but at least they weren't niggers. Many Bush voters are similar, they may not be rich, but at least they are not homo-lovin liberals. They are hapy thinking that as long as they think like rich white christain people and share thier ideals, that all is good. They are just one lucky break from being rich too. I have no facts to back up any of what I have said. College town and major metropolis vote liberal, rural america votes republican. Figure the demographics out if you want. I already feel i know enough.

It doesn't matter, if I am right, them the conservative republicans will continue to become more extreme and more of a minority. Alienated and smaller. Clutch the power with their white knuckles while they can. Liberals may not be reproducing fast, but the minorities are....and they vote liberal. Except the hispanic crowd. And you see how they get rewarded. J Ashcroft's old job. That appointment will help Jeb out in '08. Shoring up hispanic votes for next go round.

I'm ignorant. Don't mind me. I don't agree with all I have said here, I just like to point out points of view that are not mentiond much. Devil's advocate sort of thing. :wink: