Future of Politics

[cableguy]

evangelicals are born again christians.... period... it has nothing to do with frequency of churchgoings...

here in America, we have the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and a right to vote... regardless of how we come to our ideas, religion, or vote, these things can not be taken away...

the electoral college is how we elect our President... it is described in the Constitution, and to change it requires an amendment... small states will not allow this to happen...

two states do not have "winner take all" apportionment laws in regards to the electoral college... nebraska and maine... each have different methods of assigning electors... colorado DEFEATED a measure to join those two states...

the largest deciding factor, when limited to the choices given, was moral values... this is a loaded choice, as to not choose it implies that one is not voting their morals... the vagueness of the term should also disqualify it.. to some, the war in iraq, and even against terrorism in general is a moral value... you will find citizens on both sides of both issues calling their side the moral one... taxes can be a moral value... abortion certainly can be... the list goes on and on..

dexter, the reason the left lost this election, for President, and BOT houses of congress, is because the democrat party has been doing the very thing you are accusing the republicans of doing... moving farther and farther to the fringe...

lastly, because i have decided i can no longer resist, "your ass says" can be depicted as such: *fart*

sorry, ya, i couldnt resist... it has nothing to do with you, but everything to do with your handle...

ps: where is the defense of the french over their unilateral intervention without a "mommy may i?" note from the un?? there certainly were a lot of folks willing to support the french over their decisions regarding iraq... where are you all now??? i just want to know what circumstances need to be met to warrant such unilateral military action against a sovereign state...

 

[Stingray]

evangelicals are born again christians.... period... it has nothing to do with frequency of churchgoings...

50/50. It doesn't have anything to do with church going frequency, but not all Christians are Evangelicals anymore than all Christians are Catholics. Evangelical Christians are Christians who are a part of the Evangelical denomination of prodestant Christianity, which focuses it's messages on one, or all, of the gospels in the New Testament of the Bible. That, and evangelists/fanatics ('tis a fine line sometimes...)

Now....Back to the topic at hand.

I wanna say it's done now...but in case it's not....can we get past the "why bush was re-elected" debate? He was re-elected. It's done. Surely there's other political items to discuss than the election.

 

[oscaraustin]

Bush=rich man who still loves god and country and with all his money still lives on a ranch. Nascar racers who support him= rich white guys who love god and counrty and even though they have money, still drive winnabegos (sp?) You see the trend?

Kerry = rich man as well. Every politician, aside from farmerCarter, has been rich and always will be rich. Even Carter was on the upper-middle fringe. You need to be rich to have influence, power, and access to the presidency.

Not everyone who voted Bush is rich, I'm not rich, I'm middle class (shouldn't i be a democrat thinking about myself?) but i voted Bush and have conservative tendancies Why? I agree with the politics of the right more than the left. Pretty much on everything except for the rights of gays to marry, i lean right.

Segway> The networks have been talking about the "consolidation" and unity of the republican party and conservative politics. I really don't agree. I see three major factions of the right. 1) Old Glory republicans, who are rich and want to protect their money. 2) The religious right who are for protecting their morality and virtues. 3) Essentially a liberal movement amongst youth in that it is now standard to be liberal when young. Liberal in this context meaning break from the ordinary and not necessarily left.

State universities openly advocate leftist thought, with professors voicing opinions in classes. College students, especially freshman, are open to change and looking to make themselves. Seeing friendly professors, who constantly slam the right and talk about the left as though it were candy, makes these students feel the need to be part of the left; as though it is their duty and place to be part of change. Young republicans are a response to this more often than being from money. In my opinion all of the early polls missed the vast amount of young republicans there are in this country, assuming that the youth would strike for Kerry. Essentially, todays "rebels" are conservatives, they just don't want to be told they have to be an instrument of change all the time.

 

[Iceberg]

Speaking of the South, Dexter, and the whole issue of morality: http://www.fuckthesouth.com/.

Some pretty mean language in it, so if you are offended, please refrain from reading it.

Also, I'm not saying all those from the South are like this.

 

[war|forever]

So much for a "time for healing" :lol:, Ice, I appreciate your enthusiasm but fear those without a sense of humor might be severely offended by that site....

.. eh fuck it, let them secede

 

[Your_Ass]

Yeah cable, that’s one of the biggest problems with my argument. I was kind of mincing words with that evangelical thing. I should have just kept it simple, and argued that Christians who vote from their faith are the problem. With evangelicals being a large percentage of those. But it doesn't really matter, I've raised all my arguments, if you don’t agree that religion had an impact on this election it’s only as a result of 1 of 2 things;
Either 1) you are too stubborn to change your mind or 2) you’re right.

The same applies to me so there isn't much point in drawing this out.


p.s. that was a sweet fart joke

 

[Gonjawolverine]

Wow, it has been real enlightening to read all this jibba-jabba about the evangelical christian vote.
The thread claims to be about future of politics, and they has been light dicussion on that, but the bulk of it is why so many more "church going" people voted for dubbya this election than last. It really doesn't matter who won the election. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter who is in office, because nothing gets done. I can't recall in my 23 years of existence how an elected official has directly affected my life. Maybe in the 1780's-1970's they were making shit happen, but now, no change whatsoever. We still have the same problems now, as we had in the early 80's, tremendous debt, the need for fossil fuel, the destruction of our evironment, poverty, rising unemployment, lack of health insurance for millions of citizens, people are starving right now, and nothing gets done. It will remain that way until we get somebody who is not going to be sold to the highest bidder in office, and that will probably never happen in our lifetime.

The national debt is $ 7,441,438,473,370.62 as of 5:13 p.m. 11/11/04 (yeah that's Trillions)

If you are an American citizen your share is $25,244.82

Cash or Check

 

[Iceberg]

So much for a "time for healing" , Ice, I appreciate your enthusiasm but fear those without a sense of humor might be severely offended by that site....

.. eh fuck it, let them secede

It is a bit on the rude side, but eliminate the expletives and you get a very good argument, one that could be used in a serious discussion.

 

[Dexterdoe]

Speaking of the South, Dexter, and the whole issue of morality: http://www.fuckthesouth.com/.

Also, I'm not saying all those from the South are like this.

I'm from the south, but I'm not really southern.
I feel I can run my mouth a little about red v/ss blue due to the fact that my family, friends, and co-workers are both red and blue.

I loved the link. Thanks Iceberg.

Here is a map of FL by county as voted in the election.

I kind of butched up the picture for my own purpose, but you can find the origional @
http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2004/
plus another cool map that has 3d bumps showing population densities.

 

[Stingray]

The national debt is $ 7,441,438,473,370.62 as of 5:13 p.m. 11/11/04 (yeah that's Trillions)

The interesting thing there is this:

When Bush sr. was president, just prior to the first gulf-war (I'm going on memory. Keep in mind, I was in the 6th grade at the time.), the debt was at 3 trillion & change. Considering there's been 3.5 presiential terms since then, and it's only doubled, we should be thankful. When you consider there've been:
-2 gulf wars
-one of the largest job-making facilities in the country was decimated
-3 other overseas conflicts (Somolia, Bosnia, Afgahnistan)
-countless smaller conflicts (items like US military presence in Haiti)
-a several millions dollar hearing to find out if Clinton got a hummer
-and the largest plummet in the stock market since the depression

...have all happened during that time, it's nothing shy of miraculous that it hasn't tripled or more.

 

[oscaraustin]

National debt.

Important note, the citizens and businesses buying products made outside the U.S. contribute just as much to the national debt as the elected government and military. So you can't just blame the politics or a party for it. That debt will always be rising because of the American way of life.

 

[cableguy]

funny how news works... the economy was the worst since the great depression a mere few days ago... now we find unexpectedly high exports leading to a smaller trade deficit, more jobs created than forecast, and the unemployment rate, though it includes the self employed as unemployed, continues to fall... folks, these trends were all present before the election as well... why are they only now made newsworthy??

gonja, it sometimes takes a President to get things through congress, such as tax cuts... those directly affect you, assuming you work and pay taxes..

we have a need for oil, but an unwillingness to use our own... please ask former candidate kerry why...

the environment has been in better shape pretty much nonstop since the days of heavy smog and forecasts of gas masks being necessary to simply be outdoors...

water is cleaner than it ever has been, since testing began..

poverty is relative... find someone in America who is below the poverty line, then compare them to someone living an average life in, say, india... pick the nation you want, poor folks here have far more than any other place in the world... also, the only thing that defines poverty is an arbitrary income level... assets and property are not factored in, and for all i know, the lowest 10% or whatever of ALL Americans will ALWAYS be considered in poverty... not the case... owning a home and a car, plus luxury items such as tvs and computers is hardly the life of someone in poverty...

unemployment is down, and continues to fall..

the health insurance problem is not nearly what you believe it to be.. that number includes EVERYONE who was without insurance for even a SINGLE DAY in a year... that person, insuranceless for a day, is counted as uninsured for the year... some people choose not to have insurance, as they are healthy and see no need... i work full time, and have insurance... so does my family... find a full time job, there are plenty out there, and become one of the insured if you want to...

who is starving?? this is another oft bandied about phrase, without anything to back it up... no names, no locations, no pictures... no story, as it isnt happening... please notify cbs news and the new york times, and they can perhaps fabricate some for you and your argument... they have a record of doing such things...

more money was spent trying to get kerry elected than was to re-elect President Bush, so please flush the highest bidder argument...

the problem as i see it, is that democrats and liberals in this country come to where they are by not comprehending how something, anything, can be defined in black and white, right or wrong, and most importantly, done so with simplicity... not all things need be complicated... not all things ARE complicated... some things are right, some things are wrong... period...

and oh, i am from a blue state... sadly...

 

[Iceberg]

the environment has been in better shape pretty much nonstop since the days of heavy smog and forecasts of gas masks being necessary to simply be outdoors...

water is cleaner than it ever has been, since testing began..

That is pure gobbledygook.

The environment has never been in worse shape than it is today.

Global warming is threatening to kill off about a quarter of the animal and plant species on this planet. It will cause the largest refugee crisis the world will ever see when sea levels rise the expected 3 metres (about 10 feet) over the next 50 years, where half a billion (yes, BILLION) people who live in coastal areas will be forced to move inland or elsewhere. And, for the hell of it, global warming may cause another ice age (yes, I did say ICE AGE) by cutting off the Gulf Stream that feeds the Northern Hemisphere its warmth.

Global warming will also increase the frequency and severity of extreme weather events, which will increase the number of people killed or injured and left homeless due to events such as hurricanes, tornadoes, thunderstorms, and floods. Also, severe climatic variability will result in many thousands more killed and food stocks to decline due to events such as drought and heat waves.

There are so many toxins in the air, soil, and water that cancer rates have been at an all-time high. Also, particulate matter in cities is causing respiratory ailments and diseases to escalate, which is becoming a huge burden on our health care systems.

Stop with your Republican talking points and read a little about environmental and atmospheric science so you can actually learn a little about the problems we Earthlings face on this planet.

 

[Stingray]

funny how news works... the economy was the worst since the great depression a mere few days ago... now we find unexpectedly high exports leading to a smaller trade deficit, more jobs created than forecast, and the unemployment rate, though it includes the self employed as unemployed, continues to fall... folks, these trends were all present before the election as well... why are they only now made newsworthy??

we have a need for oil, but an unwillingness to use our own... please ask former candidate kerry why...

poverty is relative... find someone in America who is below the poverty line, then compare them to someone living an average life in, say, india... pick the nation you want, poor folks here have far more than any other place in the world... also, the only thing that defines poverty is an arbitrary income level... assets and property are not factored in, and for all i know, the lowest 10% or whatever of ALL Americans will ALWAYS be considered in poverty... not the case... owning a home and a car, plus luxury items such as tvs and computers is hardly the life of someone in poverty...

the health insurance problem is not nearly what you believe it to be.. that number includes EVERYONE who was without insurance for even a SINGLE DAY in a year... that person, insuranceless for a day, is counted as uninsured for the year... some people choose not to have insurance, as they are healthy and see no need... i work full time, and have insurance... so does my family... find a full time job, there are plenty out there, and become one of the insured if you want to...

who is starving?? this is another oft bandied about phrase, without anything to back it up... no names, no locations, no pictures... no story, as it isnt happening... please notify cbs news and the new york times, and they can perhaps fabricate some for you and your argument... they have a record of doing such things...

Top to bottom, and this time Its not just because I'm lazy...it's because my meds are causing problems w/me focusing on the screen....

--New Newsworthy stuff
...was always newsworthy. At least where I'm at. Been hearing about all of that for some time now...

--Oil
...this isn't a new thing, it's been that way for 20 years...through both republican and democratic presidencies.

--Poverty
Let's not confuse comparitive poverty to outright poverty. There's a lot of people who can find a roof or transportation only because their welfare check allows them to. They survive because the government allows it. I'm pretty sure 8 outta 10 folks would consider that honest-to-god poverty. State/federal government funded housing alone shows a fair number of people who most likely wouldn't have shelter had it not been for government programs. The idea is to get the poor folk away from government aid, and living on their own $.

--Healthcare
It's not only a matter of the un-insured, it's a matter of people having to pay more than their means for insurance, or worse yet, surgeries &/or perscriptions their insurance won't cover. And trust me, regardless of job market, health benifits aren't that easy to get, which is why so many people end up with HMO's that barely cover a head cold, let alone anything necessary. Another problem with the health care system is that in some cases, particular insurances aren't accepted with certain private practices. For example, in high school I came down with bronchitis. My grandmother--a retired RN--thought I should see a dr. to insure i wasn't getting pnemonia. We went, and that particular doctor's office wouldn't honor the insure my mother got through her employers. That's a problem when you're a lower-middle class family on a fixed budget that can't really afford a 83 dollar doctor visit without planning it out 2 months ahead of time.

--Starving people
Believe it or not, they do exist. Go to a homeless shelter one night in december, you'll find dozens of 'em standing in line for soup that could pass for something found in my baby cousin's diaper.

 

[oscaraustin]

Global warming is threatening to kill off ...

The geologic / scientific community is split on global warming. On one extreme they think, like you, that we will all be fucked royally by rising temperatures within the next few 100 years. On the other extreme they believe that we are only in a period of recession of the Pleistocene ice age (which means part where it gets warmer before getting cold as fuck), and that in a few thousand years we will all freeze to death and be royally fucked. Then you have those who believe the latter, but are willing to defend the lives of mankind by bombarding the Earth with nuclear weapons or whatever new "heat laser" or gamma radiation bombarding weapons we have to heat the earth up to halt the ice age. This again would probably royally fuck us. I'm a geoscience minor... i have to deal with the dueling opinions every time i see a different professor, and they all know they are right and the others are ignorant.

So in short, we are royally fucked, but we can't say for certain it is going to be global warming doing the royal fucking... My money is on Canada somehow fucking us all over royally, or maybe the dark horse Malaysia.

Anyway, global warming is not politics! BOT

poverty is relative... find someone in America who is below the poverty line, then compare them to someone living an average life in, say, india... pick the nation you want, poor folks here have far more than any other place in the world... also, the only thing that defines poverty is an arbitrary income level... assets and property are not factored in, and for all i know, the lowest 10% or whatever of ALL Americans will ALWAYS be considered in poverty... not the case... owning a home and a car, plus luxury items such as tvs and computers is hardly the life of someone in poverty...

Let's not confuse comparitive poverty to outright poverty. There's a lot of people who can find a roof or transportation only because their welfare check allows them to. They survive because the government allows it. I'm pretty sure 8 outta 10 folks would consider that honest-to-god poverty. State/federal government funded housing alone shows a fair number of people who most likely wouldn't have shelter had it not been for government programs. The idea is to get the poor folk away from government aid, and living on their own $.

I agree with cableguy in that the majority of people in poverty in America (poverty line is ~$28K / year), are far far better off than people in other parts of the world, what we used to be allowed to call "3rd world". But there are many Americans who are in nearly as bad of shape. To an extent it is true "to be homeless in America is to live better than much of the rest of the world," however, i think the end should be "... to have more opportunity for a better life than much of the rest of the world."

Then, I further agree with Stingray that our policies should be moving toward making these people dependant on the government programs self-sufficient and off the governments aid. This is the only way to eventually better their and the nations situation as well.

 

[Iceberg]

Anyway, global warming is not politics! BOT

The topic itself is not political. However, there are huge political issues associated with global warming, which divides Democrats from Republicans. Most Republicans believe that the issue is not occurring, while Democrats believe it is occurring (as do the 1400 scientists that comprise the IPCC, which include several dozen Nobel Laureates). Republicans (except for John McCain) do nothing about the growing problem, while Democrats are trying to assess and actually minimize the problem. (If Democrats actually had control over one of the Houses, Senate or Congress, perhaps there would be some progress on the issue.)

p.s. Good to hear we have another Geo student here! I'm a physical geography major (B.Sc. stream) with a huge (and I mean HUGE) interest in weather and climate stuff. I worked at the weather office in my city for two summers and have a goal to be a climatologist (studying global warming and El Niño).

 

[war|forever]

Anyone need a drink in here?

... Snack?

No?.. You're all ok? Alright... I'll check on you a little later.

*walks out the door*

 

[Stingray]

Anyone need a drink in here?

... Snack?

No?.. You're all ok? Alright... I'll check on you a little later.

*walks out the door*

:lol: you're an odd duck, War....we should get along quite well...

 

[Gatorman]

Anyone need a drink in here?

... Snack?

No?.. You're all ok? Alright... I'll check on you a little later.

*walks out the door*

Does tend to get a little heavy with all these profound thoughts.....I'll have a double Gentlemen Jack on the rocks, please! :wink:

 

[cableguy]

and a tall glass of mountain dew for me...

i reject the premise that global warming can even be considered an issue... i do this for several reasons...

first, temperature records have only been kept for about 100 years... even if you say 500, you end up with a statistically meaningless time span considering the billions of years earth has been here... said temperatures have been taken only in certain locations for much of this time, ignoring many parts of the world.. now, and only recently, we can take temperatures from satellites... the technology for this is beyond me, but i am told it can be done, and i accept this on faith... which temperature sample is the right one?? what is the natural cycle of temperatures for this planet??? human life is but a blip on the history of this rock... hence, i conclude that there is no possible way to gather enough data to prove even a trend, much less a causative relationship between humans and global temperatures...

next is the concept of "greenhouse gases." a SINGLE volcanic eruption of signifigant size (such as mt pinatubo, krakatoa, mt st helens) releases more "pollutants" into the atmosphere than all humankind could possibly hope to... a volcano is not considered pollution...

the ozone layer/hole... related to "greenhouse gases," or is it??? for man-made pollutants to have an affect on the ozone layer, said pollutants would have to somehow make their way from their source, largely in the northern hemisphere, up high enough to do whatever they do, AND make their way somehow to the vacinity of the south pole... is there any proof whatsoever that the hole, which i acknowledge, has ANYTHING to do with humans??? is there any proof that this is NOT a naturally occurring phenomenon??

point of view is everything... if you believe in global warming, it isnt too hard to find information to support your claim... same goes for not believing in it... i havent yet seen anything i can call science with a straight face that shows anything at all amiss with ambient temperatures...

science, as i have been taught, is fact based... if something can be said to be scientifically true, proof positive, it is the result of an experiment that can be repeated, under the same circumstances, to achieve the exact same result every time it is tried... climatology insofar as global temperatures and mankinds potential effect on them are concerned, simply does not meet this scientific standard... the sampling data is from far too small a range, not geographically dispersed enough over the entire sample, and must make assumptions based on incomplete data...

the missing ice from the northern ice cap has been found by a canadian scientist... it seems that American submarines mapping the depth of the icepack on several occasions over 50 or so years found a dramatic thinning... this ice was assumed to have melted until very recently... it seems it actually shifted into canadian territorial waters, and as we respected those waters as canadian, no mapping was done there... recently, the icepack in canadian waters was found to be far thicker than 50 years ago.. assumption of melting: gone...

in closing, i am not saying the earth is not warming, i am not saying the earth is not cooling... i AM saying that i do not believe mankind has the ability to affect such things, and even if we do, scientific data is not sufficient for definitive conclusions... please recall, scientists used to think the earth was flat... sometimes "science" is wrong...