War In Iraq/Terrorists

[Preferred User]

I'm in Duke. Maybe Springer will show his tits!!!

 

[mindido]

If your looking for good news from Iraq, well, this isn't it. Just ran across an interesting transcript from last nights Keith Olberman show on MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11605049/

Neoconservatism dead? Some interesting quotes:

"OLBERMANN: It is just three months now since congressman and decorated vet Jack Murtha was denounced on the floor of the House of Representatives as a, quote, “coward” for having even suggested we make a quick exit from Iraq.

Our fourth story on the COUNTDOWN, now William F. Buckley is saying we should get out, and fast. And a conflict-resolution organization with the improbable name The International Crisis Group issuing a warning today. Iraq, it says, is on the verge of an all-out civil war between the Shia and Sunni populations, and the international community should prepare for the real possibility that the entire country could destabilize."

"In Iraq today, the three-day-old curfew was lifted. An uneasy calm after a wave of sectarian violence killed hundreds of Iraqis following last week‘s attack on the Shiites‘ holy shrine in Samarra. Now Iraq is teetering on the brink of civil war, and the reason is the failure of neoconservativism, says Francis Fukuyama.

FRANCIS FUKUYAMA, AUTHOR, “AMERICA AT THE CROSSROADS”: It was an overestimation, I think, of the importance of American power in bringing about the, you know, democracy in general.

O‘DONNELL: What‘s stunning is that Fukuyama is one of the leading architects of neoconservatism. But three years after the invasion, he now says it was misused in Iraq.

FUKUYAMA: You know, conservatism is as American as apple pie. This is a long-standing tradition, this American idealism, to see ourselves as a model for the rest of the world.

O‘DONNELL (on camera): So what‘s wrong?

FUKUYAMA: You know, the problem, really, was the overmilitarization of the means. I think we‘ve spread democracy through political influence, through the example that we set, through funding.

O‘DONNELL (voice-over): In his new book, Fukuyama says the Bush doctrine, launching preemptive wars to defend America, it is now in shambles.

(on camera): How have your friends, other neoconservatives, reacted to you speaking out?

FUKUYAMA: I suspect a lot of people are sharpening their knives as we speak.

O‘DONNELL (voice-over): He says his apostasy comes from growing frustration, a failure of planning, a need for realism. First, Vice President Cheney claiming the U.S. would be greeted as liberators.

FUKUYAMA: They expected to be down to 25,000 troops by the end of the first summer after active combat was over.

O‘DONNELL (on camera): Another example, a leaked National Intelligence Council assessment from July 2004 that warned Iraq would achieve “tenuous stability” in the next 18 months, or, worst case, could dissolve into civil war.

(voice-over): Back then, the president dismissed the study.

BUSH: And they were just guessing as to what the conditions might be like."

 

[Preferred User]

Yea here's more Min. I keep hearing that troops think we're winning, that we should stay. In the first real poll of 944 US troops in Iraq:

"Only 23 percent backed Mr. Bush's position that they should stay as long as necessary. In contrast, 72 percent said that U.S. troops should be pulled out within one year. Of those, 29 percent said they should withdraw "immediately."​

 

[mindido]

Yea here's more Min. I keep hearing that troops think we're winning, that we should stay. In the first real poll of 944 US troops in Iraq:

"Only 23 percent backed Mr. Bush's position that they should stay as long as necessary. In contrast, 72 percent said that U.S. troops should be pulled out within one year. Of those, 29 percent said they should withdraw "immediately."​

Preferred,

I just ran across some of the same info. Quite interesting. Here's a link:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022800759.html

And a few quotes:

"U.S. TROOPS WANT OUT

Raising questions about Bush's vow to keep troops in Iraq as long as they are needed, a Le Moyne College/Zogby poll showed 72 percent of U.S troops serving there think the United States should exit within the next year. Nearly one in four said the troops should leave immediately.

A strategy often used by the Bush administration against opponents of the war in Iraq has been to accuse them of being unfair to troops who want to stay until they get the job done."

Bush's (and Cheney's) poll numbers are now in the dump. Bush's job approval rating = 34% and his personal approval rating is at 29%. Cheney's is at 18%. I think thats some type of record.

So Duke, what do you say now?

 

[Duke E. Pyle]

What do i say? I agree with the 72% of supposed polled US troops. I see no reason for lack of a capable Iraqi military within the next year or so. Or do you mean the low poll numbers? Expected, i think the media does their job well. Why what do you say?

 

[debeq]

Sad day

As a Carreer Soldier, it saddens me to read post like this. Unless your there, and you are living it, dont throw your 2 cents in. I spent 18 monts there now, my brother has been there for more than 2 years. I dont know of any soldier that dose not want to come home. But I also know of no soldier that would say it was a mistake. Those people deserve to be liberated from a horrible dictator like saddam. And as far as poles go, I never heard of any soldier being poled over there.

 

[Preferred User]

Unless your there, and you are living it, dont throw your 2 cents in.

debeq, if your fight for freedom in Iraq means we should have less freedom in the US, stop. Now. Right now. Please!

Almost 5 years ago we were attacked by 19 men who belonged to a group based in Afghanistan lead by a Saudi. 15 of those men were Saudis. Since then we have invested over 2,200 lives like yours, billions of $'s, put our selves deep in hock to the Chinese, all in an effort to...teach Iraq a lesson of some sort. Even Colin Powell (who has been there I might add) will tell you there is no tie between Iraq and 9/11. WTF?

My country has been completely focused on this war for reasons I've never understood. If it all means I can't have an opinion, I really want you out of there.

 

[Texan]

As a Carreer Soldier, it saddens me to read post like this. Unless your there, and you are living it, dont throw your 2 cents in. I spent 18 monts there now, my brother has been there for more than 2 years. I dont know of any soldier that dose not want to come home. But I also know of no soldier that would say it was a mistake. Those people deserve to be liberated from a horrible dictator like saddam. And as far as poles go, I never heard of any soldier being poled over there.

Thank you for your service and your first hand opinion on the topic.

 

[mindido]

As a Carreer Soldier, it saddens me to read post like this. Unless your there, and you are living it, dont throw your 2 cents in.

debeg,

I'm gonna have to agree with Preferred here. We do live in the US, don't we? We are allowed to say, basically, whatever we want, aren't we? If your not sure, reread the Constitution.

I spent 18 monts there now, my brother has been there for more than 2 years. I dont know of any soldier that dose not want to come home. But I also know of no soldier that would say it was a mistake.

Then I think you should check out current events more often. Currently, there are at least 7 or 8 vets of the current fiasco running for Congress. 5 or 6 of which are running as Democrats and have all said the war was a mistake.

Those people deserve to be liberated from a horrible dictator like saddam.

Maybe. But who said that we had to do it? Especially when all of the reasons we went in there have been proven to be lies. The Iraqi's should have done it themselves.

And as far as poles go, I never heard of any soldier being poled over there.

I guess thats because this is the first poll that has been publicly reported. The military "may" have polled soldiers previously, but didn't report the results.

 

[debeq]

war

This is not a war against Afgan or Iraq. Its a war against an Islamic idea that all non muslims should die. Yes its a select group that looks at it this way, but there the ones were fighting. And please stop quoting the lies you hear from the media, liberal news blogs, and from the looks of some post, things ya just make up.

 

[mindido]

This is not a war against Afgan or Iraq. Its a war against an Islamic idea that all non muslims should die.

Oh, really??? And exactly HOW DO you kill an idea?

Yes its a select group that looks at it this way, but there the ones were fighting.

Oh, really??? The neocons are the ones that started this idiot war and their architect has just written a book saying they botched the damn thing. And, by the way, they are not fighting the war, nor are many, if any, of their sons or daughters.

And please stop quoting the lies you hear from the media, liberal news blogs, and from the looks of some post, things ya just make up.

And I would suggest that you expand your resources to something other than Rush Limbaugh or Fox News. I follow sources on both sides and in the middle (to get anywhere near the truth, you must) and even the far right is now recognizing that things are going poorly over there. The only things I've seen made up recently is coming out of the White House. You don't think Republican Congressional members would be fleeing the ship like rats if they didn't recognize what is going on. Do you?

 

[debeq]

war

How did we stop the idea of the nazi party. Or the idea of the japanese imperialism. We crush it, destroy it, and kill as many as possible.
And as far as ideas from Rush or fox, I am a Cpt in the United States Army.
My older Brother is a Lt Col i got a real good idea of whats really going on there.

No Im not a violent man, and I dont want to see war, but I understand the concept of them or us. If you think the U.S. is wrong, fly to Iraq, find the Insurgents. Tell them you are sorry for the U.S. actions, tell them we are at fault and see how they welcome you. Im sure you will have a great time.

 

[mindido]

How did we stop the idea of the nazi party. Or the idea of the japanese imperialism.

We did not stop the "idea" of Nazism, it is still alive and well in the US as well as other parts of the world. We did defeat the Nazi's. There is a difference. And imperialism hasn't been stopped at all. What the heck do you think we are doing in Iraq? You might want to read some of Fukuyama's (and the other Neocons) writings.

And as far as ideas from Rush or fox, I am a Cpt in the United States Army.

Ugh, sorry, but somehow, I have a difficult time believing that. First off, being a Captain means having a college education, thus a good idea of how to use the written and spoken word. Second, those with some degree of higher education tend to take pride in their abilities to use the written word. Your previous posts demonstrate a very poor understanding, and command, of the English language.

My older Brother is a Lt Col i got a real good idea of whats really going on there.

There may be some truth to that.

No Im not a violent man, and I dont want to see war, but I understand the concept of them or us.

See above for what I said about the use of the English language.

If you think the U.S. is wrong, fly to Iraq, find the Insurgents.

And why, exactly, would anyone in their right mind do that (unless they have a suicide wish)?

Tell them you are sorry for the U.S. actions, tell them we are at fault and see how they welcome you. Im sure you will have a great time.

If anyone should tell them we are sorry, its G.W. He and the Neocons are the idiots that got us into this mess (I, sure as hell didn't vote for him). So, since you seem to be a G.W. supporter, I think you'd be better suited for the job.

 

[Iceberg]

mindido and debeq, sorry, but I'll have to disagree with some of each of what you two said. Sorry if this is very long-winded, but there's so much to which to respond. Here we go:

Unless your there, and you are living it, dont throw your 2 cents in.

I disagree partly with this. A non-military citizen of the US has the right to speak on this or any other subject. However, you, debeq, are in a better position to speak of the state of operations in Iraq having served there.

Those people deserve to be liberated from a horrible dictator like saddam.

Here's part of the argument where I agree with you. It is great that Saddam is no longer in power in Iraq, since hundreds of thousands of Iraqis (Kurds, Shiites, etc.) were slaughtered by his Ba'athists.

However, the operation to remove Saddam should have been more clearly presented by the Bush Administration so more nations could have been involved, leaving Iraq in a much more manageable state following his removal. The end result would have left the US without the quagmire they are currently in.

This is not a war against Afgan or Iraq. Its a war against an Islamic idea that all non muslims should die.

I partly agree. The operations in Afghanistan were brought about by Islamic extremism and the relationship between the Taliban and Al'Qaeda, which were both in on the repulsive attacks on 9-11.

However, there was no Iraqi state involvement in 9-11. Therefore, the operations in Iraq should not have been considered part of the "War on Terror."

I do agree wholeheartedly with you, debeq, that the Islamic idea that all non-Muslims should die must be eradicated from this planet to the greatest extent possible. It is perhaps the greatest humanity-based toxin on the planet.

(I'll add more to this tomorrow. I've hit a mental roadblock, probably due to the wine I've had tonight. Stay tuned for more later!)

 

[Preferred User]

However, you, debeq, are in a better position to speak of the state of operations in Iraq having served there.

Ice, I always have trouble with this logic. There are also reporters in Iraq, we have Paul Bremmer's book, etc. All of these people, not just the press, have a point of view and a stake in making things look this way or that way. All of them. The fact that they are there gives them some perspective others don't have, but their personal investment also gives them an agenda.

In addition, there are aspects of this war that we have all witnessed. You don't need to be in Baghdad to see the many White House miscalculations about how long we would be there, the "welcoming" reception that Cheney predicted, the pretences about WMD's etc.

The military is just one perspective. They don't all agree with each other, and given their very personal investment in the war, they are no more impartial than anyone else. Just as I don't think you have to live in America to have a valuable perspective on my country, I don't think you have to be under fire in Iraq to have a perspective on this war.

 

[Iceberg]

Ice, I always have trouble with this logic. There are also reporters in Iraq, we have Paul Bremmer's book, etc. All of these people, not just the press, have a point of view and a stake in making things look this way or that way. All of them. The fact that they are there gives them some perspective others don't have, but their personal investment also gives them an agenda.

One thing you have to take into account is the censoring that is done relating to military operations. Reporters cannot report everything or else risk the security of missions. Plus, non-freelance reporters usually have a stance they must take at the instruction of the media which hires them.

Paul Bremer's book may have been a bit more thorough, but there are areas which he cannot cover due to it being classified. It's best to speak with a member of the military who is willing to speak about the topic and has eyewitness accounts.

 

[Gonjawolverine]

Ugh, sorry, but somehow, I have a difficult time believing that. First off, being a Captain means having a college education, thus a good idea of how to use the written and spoken word. Second, those with some degree of higher education tend to take pride in their abilities to use the written word. Your previous posts demonstrate a very poor understanding, and command, of the English language.

I know lots of motherfuckers who are "College Educated", who are not as articulate with the english language as you would demand of them. That doesn't mean that they are unfit to be captains in the army. You do know they have loosened the restrictions quite a bit in the past few years, right?

If you think the U.S. is wrong, fly to Iraq, find the Insurgents. Tell them you are sorry for the U.S. actions, tell them we are at fault and see how they welcome you. Im sure you will have a great time.

To a lot of the Middle Eastern population, those insugents are patriots fighting for thier county, just like you are. I know the military has a way of brainwashing soldiers into believing that they are doing the right thing, you are just following orders. What the U.S. has done is invaded a sovereign nation, and proceded to occupy it for the past 3 years. All the Iraqis want us to do is leave. That's it. Pack up our shit get on the planes, ships, whatever, and get the fuck out. You have deposed their tyranical leader, so why are we still there?

So what do you think the over/under is before we invade Iran?
3 months?
6 months?
A year?

Whatever you may think, it is going to happen, No doubt. It is a sad situation we are in, because Bush always has to rattle his sabre. Telling sovereign nations, what they can and can't do. Do you see other countrys telling the U.S. they have to get rid of thier Nukes or thier atomic energy programs? Hell no, not only would we laugh at them, then we would procede to bomb the living hell out of them. So when Bush is telling countrys like North Korea and Iran that they cannot enrich uranium or dable in nuclear bomb engineering, they are supposed to say "Ok, we'll do whatever you say because you are America."

They are simply saying "Fuck You, make me." There is no bigger business(maybe pharmacuticals) in America than the business of War. While it may cost billions of dollars to wage war to the tax paying population. Only a small percentage of those billions go to the soldiers. The rest go to various companys like halliburton or lockeed martin. While the manufacturing jobs are disapearing all over the country(thanks mr. Bush), and big companys like Ford and GM are hemorrhaging cash, while halliburtons stock is at an all time high, those fucks are getting paid.

I heard that some old fuck they call Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, has started to call the war on terror "The Long War". I wonder how many speech writers they have on staff to make up names for our conflicts. Anyway, rummy has started to call it "The Long War" because "The United States is engaged in what could be a generational conflict akin to the Cold War, the kind of struggle that might last decades as allies work to root out terrorists across the globe and battle extremists who want to rule the world." Great, that is just what I wanted to hear. We are in just the begining of a conflict that will last for decades.

By March 31, 2006 the cost of the war in Iraq is set to hit two-hundred and fifty-one billion dollars.
$251,000,000,000.00
Think about that.
And it is just the begining.

 

[stu2906]

According to the CIA (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/iz.htm) Iraq has a population of about 26,074,906 people.

If that $251,000,000,000.00 had been shared between them all they would have recieved $9,626 each.

I think that would have toppled Saddam AND made them great chums with the west. If George W gave me $$$$ i would think much better of him.

Based on the same rate the invasion of Iran would cost $654,739,920,360

 

[Texan]

Whats the conversion rate for goats to dollars

 

[stu2906]

Depending on age and species you could expect tpo pay between $800 and $1000 for a young goat. At the end of a 5 year period you could maybe get back about $400 of that.

There are entertainment options, stud farming, milking or other more dubious activities to which a goat may be employed.

If someone offered me 9 goats i would welcome their world domination.