Wrestling 2005

[Chuck67]

Nekkid,

-to address some of your points:

"Piper, Andre, Slaughter, Savage, they all had multiple shots at carrying the ball."

Sure, AFTER Hogan already set the standard and started manipulating
behind the scenes to secure his spot. i mentioned those guys as
an alternative to Hogan being in the WWF in the first place.

"Sure, Babe Ruth was an incredible baseball player but he had
the look, image, and personality that everybody loved and still
loves today. He ate hot dogs during games, he was fat but could
still steal bases. ect. You really can't speculate and say well...
if he didn't do it someone would have."

Sure i can- baseball and wrestling are clearly to different things.

"In regards to the rock and scsa, they were great, two of the best,
they were greatly responsible for the 2nd golden age of wrestling.
Don't forget though who was a major contributer/equally responsible
a few channels over with the NWO..."

First off, Hogan jumped on the bandwagon of Hall and Nash with the NWO;
he really saw the 'writing on the wall' with his fading career and knew if
he didn't join them they'd squash him like everyone else.(BTW, the original
plan was to inlist Sting as the third member but Hogan wound up being
more of a shocker.)
Second, Austin and Rock carried the shows without an NWO-type gimmick
so i wouldn't compare Hogan (at that time) to them at their peaks. It's not
Hogan single-handedly that brought huge ratings at the time, it was the
NWO concept. Now, Austin(and Vince) can take credit for ending the
winning streak of Nitro and it's well documented that Austin drew just
as well as Hogan did in his WWF days. (Mania 3 being the exception.)

As for being household names, i can't see how you think Rock and Austin
AREN'T equally as well-known as Hogan??? ('Specially Rock whose got
a better movie career than Hogan ever did!!)

-C

 

[Dillon]

Chuck,whatever.Hogan maked the NWO.You think Hogan a bad wrestler.Piper and Andre both sucked as wrestlers.Hogan took WCW to the top.The WWE almost went under.The Rock and Stone Cold aren't as well known as Hogan.Both aren't as mainstream as Hogan.Hogan has been on a media tour for about a month or more.The Rock makes a movie and does about two or three weeks of media.The Rock and Stone Cold aren't 90's icon like Hogan is in the 80's.It was Vince Sr. that make up the name Hulk Hogan.Jr. was smart and make Hogan the number one guy.Piper or Andre couldn't have done what Hogan did.

 

[nekkid]

Chuck, I understand that Wrestling and baseball are different things, but for the point I was making its the same concept. I was making a parellel. People like personalities good or bad. Football has had many great personalities good and bad: Deion, the 90's dallas, terrell owens ect. That grabs attention. People like the personalities more than what happens on the field or mat in a lot of cases. Wrestling same thing.

Wrestlers really can only do so much in the ring. No matter who you watch wrestle they basically do the same moves over and over. The guys that make the money for themselves and the company have the personalities. A few situations (in the modern era) have come around where a great in ring performer has done well financially:

Bret Hart
HBK
Foley (hardcore style)
a few others depending on opinion

Then there is a laundry list of wrestlers who are average in the ring, and great on the mic, who have made a ton of money. (I'm not saying this is a good thing necessarily but it is the way the business works.

Hogan
Nash
Hall (he was an above average wrestler)
Cena
scsa
rock

"First off, Hogan jumped on the bandwagon of Hall and Nash with the NWO;
he really saw the 'writing on the wall' with his fading career and knew if
he didn't join them they'd squash him like everyone else.(BTW, the original
plan was to inlist Sting as the third member but Hogan wound up being
more of a shocker.)
Second, Austin and Rock carried the shows without an NWO-type gimmick
so i wouldn't compare Hogan (at that time) to them at their peaks. It's not
Hogan single-handedly that brought huge ratings at the time, it was the
NWO concept. Now, Austin(and Vince) can take credit for ending the
winning streak of Nitro and it's well documented that Austin drew just
as well as Hogan did in his WWF days. (Mania 3 being the exception.)"

Bottom line if Hogan was not a part of the NWO it NEVER would have worked. period. That was one of the most intelligent moves in wrestling history. Turn the biggest babyface of all time into a heel.

In general its hard to pinpoint the success of a promotion on a few people. I know Hogan was not 100% responsible for the success of WCW or WWE. There are writers, gimmicks, timing, money, promotion, wrestlers willing to do the job or sell moves. Lots of things. WWE made its turn around with the WWE Attitude, which brought more smut, violence, and harsh language to the business than has ever been seen. Think about it... DX, Austin, the cat getting naked, sable, Mark Henry having sex with a hermaphrodite.

I could go on but, my point is is that for whatever reason, Hogan was the right guy at the right time for both golden ages of wrestling for 2 different promotions, a feat which I think will never be duplicated. A great testiment to what he has done.


"Sure, AFTER Hogan already set the standard and started manipulating
behind the scenes to secure his spot. i mentioned those guys as
an alternative to Hogan being in the WWF in the first place."

That is definately true; however EVERY wrestler has played backstage politics to different degrees its a part of business. I'll quote Scott Hall "Chief Jay strongbow told us (hall and Nash) 'In this business you you either make friends or make money" That applies to just about every business.

Do you really think that if there was no hulk hogan that piper or Andre would have elevated WWE to the heights of Hulkamania?? Or Slaughter for Christ sake? Slaughter had one of the worst gimmicks ever, I know it worked briefly, but c'mon do you think he would have been able to carry a company to (at the time) unimaginable heights?

"As for being household names, i can't see how you think Rock and Austin
AREN'T equally as well-known as Hogan??? ('Specially Rock whose got
a better movie career than Hogan ever did!!)"

I agree the rock has had a much better film career. And Steve Austin has the number one selling wrestling shirt (maybe any shirt) of all time "Austin 3:16", along with tons of other merchandise. Austin has two streets named after him for Christ sake.

I thought you were talking specifically on a purely "wrestling household name". When it comes to a person who doesn't know wretling being asked "name a wrestler" I would venture to say most people would not hesitate to say Hulk Hogan. For better or worse.

 

[Chuck67]

Nekkid, you make alot of great points and i DO AGREE with most of them;
i just ultimately think Hogan gets WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT for his own good.
Vince McMahon made Hogan what he is because he gave him the 'vehicle'
(WWF) in which to do it. Same as he did with Austin and the Rock.

Guess my dislike for the guy has to do with what he's done behind the
scenes. i don't like what he did in WCW 'cause it ultimately lead to its
demise. And the state that wrestling's in today. He was a role model
to many wrestlers but he showed them the worst aspects of doing
business.

-C

 

[Dillon]

No it was Kevin Nash and others that was the WCW down fall.Nash started to do the booking.Running alot of stuff in the back.Sting wouldn't wrestling only runs in and PPV.The NWO black and red.Eric came back but Ted stopped spending money.Alot of young talent went to the WWE.I think Hogan left before the WCW went down.Goldberg got boring.Ric Flair got old.Scott Hall went to rehab.ECW starting to take away the WCW fans.The WWE started to get better.The WCW started to suck.The third member of the NWO was always going to Lex Luger.It was Hogan that called Eric and wanted to be a part of the NWO.Not Sting.

 

[Dillon]

As of 6:20pm Saturday.Brett Hart isn't going to be at Summer Slam.SPOILER!!!!!!!!!It looks like Hogan will win at Summer Slam.The only way HBK wins if the feud with Hogan goes to the next 2 PPV.So both could win a match and set up for one big match.The reason that I put the time is because the WWE has to be trying to get Brett Hart to come to Summer Slam.To do something.Just a walk out.The fans would go nuts.Last week would have been a great time for Brett to come back.I think if Brett comes back it will be in Canada.

 

[Dillon]

The WWE are said to have sour on Matt Hardy.That after this angle with Edge it could be hard to do things with him.The WWE is still very high on Edge.Benoit will be getting a push soon.

 

[Chuck67]

Re: Summerslam-

To their credit, Shawn Michaels and Hulk Hogan wrestled a pretty
good match. The Yellow and Red Nostalgia Renaissance was in
full effect. Wasn't the greatest show ever, but it definitely delivered.
Michaels worked his ass off in the main event and no doubt proved
everything his promos said was true.

If there's a lesson we can all learn from Matt Hardy- the WWE always
gets the last word. i just can't believe what they're doing to Hardy.
Total BURIAL. (How can you stop a match between Hardy and Edge
because of excessive bleeding and then later have Hogan spill blood
all over the place but the match goes on??) Surprised how quickly
Benoit went over, but it was a good thing!! Ladder match had great
drama; too bad Rey and Eddie weren't battling over a belt instead
of a kid. If Jericho is leaving WWE TV for a while, he had a fantastic
send off. Randy Orton got his win back against Taker, which was good
for him as a future star. (Hope he deserves this.) Batista was way over
but his matches still suck. He needs a better opponent.

-C

 

[nekkid]

Ya I completely agree Chuck. What they did with Matt Hardy was completely stupid. There was so much potential for that angle. It was the first time in a long time that some angle in the WWE had a "buzz" and they totally dropped the ball. Then, Matt Hardy loses to Conway on RAW? What?!? What a joke.Unless this is all leading to something big which I doubt. Matt HArdy is a damn good wrestler, not great on the mic but the edge/hardy feud could have been huge, but the WWE completely dropped the ball, and yes it was most definately political. Now it looks as if he should have went to TNA, but who knows.

HBK carried Hogan as everyone expected. The last 2 RAW's HBK has phenomenal on the mic. He made that crowd in montreal hate him even MORE than they already did. He had the crowd eating out of his hand. Sometimes you forget how great a performer is after a while. And his tongue in cheek comments on Hogan last night were great as well. I think he is having a second spectacular run in his career and has proven once again why he is the best ever.

 

[Chuck67]

HBK stole the show and made Hogan look better than he really is.
Michaels should gain great respect (from his peers) with his efforts.

Shawn Michaels took a bad situation and made the best of it.
Sources say he was so frustrated with his good-faith negotiations with
Hogan behind the scenes that he was considering insisting on a
DQ finish to the match. He had reached a point that he didn't want
to lose to Hogan under any circumstances. Hogan, though, apparently
had "creative control" written into his WWE deal, and so he got to
call the shots. Michaels got revenge the next night on RAW tho'.
Great promo and i loved the part about Hogan being "catlike and nimble"!!

-C

 

[The_Thief]

HBK can't even lace up Hogan's boots!!!

 

[Chuck67]

LOL. Neither can Hogan!!!!!

-C

 

[nekkid]

Nice comment about hogan. hahah "he can't lace his own boots".

Are you nuts thief? I don't even think that this arguement is worth it. Like I have gone into detail the last week, hogan is all charisma and media creation. He might have the most limited move repetoire of all time. He is awefully slow even for a big man. His ring psychology is about as exciting as his TV show, and I think the biggest bump that he has ever taken has being put though one of WCW's pussy ass break away tables.

Yes, no one can touch hogan as a wrestling household name but "overall" he couldn't lace Michaels' boots if the whole NWO helped him do it.

Even Ric Flair said Michaels is the best ever (After himself, half-jokingly). Even Bret Hart, who hates HBK more than anyone in the world has gone on record saying that you can't dispute what Shawn has done in the ring and for the business"

Call me biased, so I'll admit that Michaels is my favorite wrestler. But I also believe he is the best.

He tells a great story in the ring. I'll quote Kevin Nash, "Michaels is the best, he goes 110% whether there are 200 people watching or 20,000. Shawn makes matches look real, and when others wrestle after him it looks very fake." I am paraphrasing there.

Shawn will take any bump. Some people find this unimportant. I think it is very important. Like I have said before, big risks are necessary. Every wrestler has the same moves that they use over and over, a good bump will spice it up, and bring excitement.

Shawn is one of the few guys that could wrestle in any era. Before WWE, shawn could have wrestled in indy promotions that were completely centered around "wrestling" when people though it was "real" competetion (He did for a while actually) because is a very technically sound wrestler. His timing and smooth transitions from move to move are just as good or better than someone like Bret Hart or Benoit.

He could have wrestled for ECW. Very easily. I actually would have LOVED to have seen it. SShawn unleashed, uncensored? wow.

Obviously WCW would have given shawn 8 billion dollars for a match with bret.

And he carried WWF/E for years before his injury.

His promo's are amazing. He could be goofy and juvenille with the best of them (DX years). Or he could cut a killer serious promo like HHH. No one does a shoot interview better than Shawn either (Take a look at the RAW where Shawn shows the footage with the Clique hugging from 1996)

He has created more controversy than anyone ever..

His top rope moves are excellent. Not quite like Jeff hardy or the Luchadores, but very close.

Point is Shawn does everything that Hogan does, plus 137 times more. Hogan will be better known, but never EVER better.

Chuck will you explain this for me...

"Sources say he was so frustrated with his good-faith negotiations with
Hogan behind the scenes that he was considering insisting on a
DQ finish to the match."

Good-faith negotiations? Did Hogan say that he would let Shawn win and the re-negged? I'm a little confused, I haven't heard that news yet...

 

[Chuck67]

nekkid-

Regarding the "good-faith negotiations" between Shawn and Hogan: When Michaels
accepted the match, friends warned him Hogan was going to get what he wanted and
that it was a mistake to not work out a finish ahead of time before agreeing to the match.

HBK had proposed a second match next month, and it was considered. It would allow both men
get two big paydays. Michaels also figured that would be a way for them to go 1-1 against
each other. However, when Hogan talked about a second match, he talked about winning
that one, too. The second match discussed was a cage match.(the one with the blue bars
where the winner is the first to escape.) Hogan proposed he beat Michaels at Summerslam
and he beat him in the follow-up cage match by crawling out of the ring before Michaels
climbed over the top and dropped to the floor in a bloodbath. Michaels didn't go for that,
so they went back to the original plan of just one match.

We may never know the extent to which the two butted heads behind the scenes during
negotiations unless Michaels includes it in his upcoming autobiography.

-C

 

[Dillon]

Hogan has four bulging discs in his lower back.He has been trying to work around it.Nobody knows if he will take time off or not.

 

[nekkid]

My guess is that he will take time out untill right before wrestlemania (Which is when i heard season 2 of Hogan knows best will debut). he might have surgery after wrestlemania

If you guys could see Hogan in any dream match at wrestlemania what would it be? I would have to take Hogan vs. Austin (If steve can still wrestle).

What other big matches are even left? I'd love to see HBK vs. Hart, I doubt that would ever happen, and HBK would HAVE to job again, but my God that would be cool if he won. What if they screwed Bret again? haha

Sting vs. the rock?

Sting vs. hbk? That might actually be a good match.

Hart vs. angle. Bret has actually expressed mild interest in this.

What else?

 

[Chuck67]

I'm tired of Hogan. He's just too old and worn out to do any 'dream match' i can
think of!! Hogan vs. Austin shouldn't happen because Austin wouldn't want to lose
to Hogan- nor should he!!

Anyways, my dream matches:
HBK vs. The Rock
Austin vs. Eddie Guerrero (they almost had one but it was dropped!)
Sting vs. HBK (it could be good if Sting is in shape!)
Macho Man Randy Savage vs. Triple H
Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (on more time!!)
Kurt Angle vs. Chris Benoit vs. Eddie Guerrero (three-way dance)

-C

 

[The_Thief]

Call me biased, so I'll admit that Michaels is my favorite wrestler. But I also believe he is the best.

LMAO! Sorry thats your favorite wrestler, but he is no Kurt Angle, now he is the best. As for Hogan he is king. I know he is old and tired, but without him none of this would be, and everyone knows that, so I got his back to the end. Hogan now pays people to lace his boots. Personally I wish he would retire. As for Micheals, what a paper champion. He carried the buisness when no one was there. He beat Vader, lol Vader! Another Joke. He cried for 5 years about his back and then he came back and only showed at ppv's for a lil time (still the back issue I guess), at least Hogan never cried over injuries, and he still shows up for work. As good as Micheals was, he best match was about a couple of months ago against Shelton Benjamin and Shelton carried that match. All Micheals had was Charisma and the you screwed Bret story, oh yeah, he also had to cheat to win that title!

 

[nekkid]

"As for Micheals, what a paper champion. He carried the buisness when no one was there. He beat Vader, lol Vader! Another Joke. He cried for 5 years about his back and then he came back and only showed at ppv's for a lil time (still the back issue I guess), at least Hogan never cried over injuries, and he still shows up for work."

Please tell me this is a joke..

NObody was there? Are you kidding only some of the best names in wrestling history..

The Undertaker
Bret Hart
Yoko
MIck Foley
Kevin Nash
Scott Hall
Owen Hart
HHH
Steve Austin
Ric Flair
And Yes Vader...

Where is the weakness in that roster?

Crying about an injury? Are you talking about when he lost his smile? Umm.. storyline maybe? Did Steve Austin whine about Owen dropping him on his neck for months? no.. storyline. Michaels had a surgery that almost no athlete has ever come back from and is just as good as he ever was.

MIchaels worked almost his whole career hurt.

Paper champ? you have got to be kidding... He changed the business forever. He MADE the ladder matrch. He MADE hell in a cell. Sure, with the TLC matches and Foley's hell in the Cell overtopping it you could make an arguement but Michaels started it.

HBK is even part of one of the best tag teams ever wwith the rocker's.

He helped propell one of the biggest stars in the history of wrestling to his greatest heights in Steve Austin at 'mania 14.

"he is no Kurt Angle, now he is the best"

I love Angle, he is definately one of the best. However Michaels can do everything that he can do and more. Angle has taken risks (moonsalt off the top of a steel cage" but michaels fell of the cage through a table at the first hell in a cell. Angle does nothing off the top rope (an occasional moonsault that he won't do anymore because of INJURIES). Michaels is arguably the best on the mic, angle is good to average at best on the mic.


"As good as Micheals was, he best match was about a couple of months ago against Shelton Benjamin and Shelton carried that match. All Micheals had was Charisma and the you screwed Bret story, oh yeah, he also had to cheat to win that title! "

This is flat out laughable. You obviously don't know wrestling.

I don't even know where to begin. His best match? HA. Michaels has had 10-12 matches better than that in his career. The 2 matches I named earlier might be two of the best matches of all time. Even Bob Ryder at 1wrestling.com will tell you that the first ladder match with Razor might be the best overall match ever and he worked for WCW!

Shelton carried the match? Thats too laughable to comment.

Cheat to win? umm.. again storyline. EVERY wrestler has cheated to win. If they are a heel, then they cheat to win. Angle hasn't cheated? The "king" as you put it Hogan never cheated? c'mon. and HBK did defeat HArt in the iron man match fair and square at wrestlemania just for the record. Yes that match had to go into overtime but that was Gorilla Monsoon's call the commisioner at the time.

When did HBK only wrestle PPV's?

I know no matter what I write you are not going to agree but here is a list of people who all at one time or another have said michaels was/is the best..

MIck Foley
Ric Flair
HHH
Kevin Nash
Jim Ross (who is the biggest Steve Austin supporter ever)
even Bret Hart

 

[The_Thief]

I would reply, but your shit is to long to read, uhhh...okay Micheals was better, you win.

Here's Hogans list:

Iron Shiek
Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorf
Big John Studd
George the Animal Steele
Greg Valentine
Don Muraco
Ken Patera
Roddy Piper
Cowboy Bob Orton
Nikolai Volkoff
King Kong Bundy
Randy Savage
Terry Funk
Kamala
Harley Race
Rick Rude
Zues
Mr. Perfect
Sgt Slaughter
The Undertaker
Ric Flair
Yokozuna
Vader
Lex Luger
The Giant (big show)
Kevin Nash
DDP
Sid Vicious
Triple H
Kurt Angle
Mr. McMahon
Shawn Micheals

You line'em up, and Hogan knocks'em down. Those are people he beat, not to mention all the ones he wrestled, like The Rock, Brock Lesner, Goldberg and Sting.