Wrestling 2005

[saeko nogami]

wait wait wait...you think the '97 writing was good? The year/era that brought us the infamous battles of DOA v. Los Boriquas? The incredible talents of Marvelous Marc Mero v. Butterbean and the horsefaced Debra as WWE Women's champ? The age that brought the downfall of the Hart Foundation in WWE, the rise of Chyna and the "Mr. Macmahon" character?

I (obviously) must disagree. Granted, what we've got now sucks, but I credit that just as much with lack of prep time as bad writing. The previous age had some time to build and got a good crop of ready-made upper midcarders handed to them by WCW (Benoit, Guerrero, Big Show, Jericho, etc...pre-buyout). Then they all got hurt/retired/died in the span of a year or two, and we got stuck with guys like Carlito, Lashley, Orton, and Batista to pick up the slack. Say what ya want about the bad writing now, its justified, but lets not make the dingleberry of 1997 into some sort of golden butt-nugget. It sucked back then too.

not in wcw,wcw was plain awesome in 1997 with the NWO in its prime and great lower card and midcard talents and there was also a great build up to the hogan-sting starrcade match.

 

[nekkid]

I agree not everything from 97-99 was perfect. The fall of the Hart foundation? The HArt foundation got old and went to wcw (I am not getting into a screwjob argument). Butterbean and marc mero? Ya they sucked but show me a roster from top to bottom that doesn't have bad characters or wrestlers or angles.

-KA- I agree that on paper 200 probably had they best roster, but if I remember right that was the satrt of the inVasion angle that sent the WWE right down the shitter.

What is wrong with the Mr. Mcmahon character in 97-99? You didn't like when he flew off the top of the cage like HBK did in the St. Valentine's day Massacree match vs. Austin? You didn't like his promo with Mick Foley where Mr. Socko was born (bed pan Mcmahon), you didn't like AUSTIN VS. MCMAHON for christ sakes?


What about DX? Bret vs. Shawn. Austin vs. Pillman. Mick Foley's 3 characters developing. The Rock and sock connection. The TLC matches. Kurt Angle!! Y2J and his incredible entrance and promo with the Rock. The NWO in WCW was at its peak (Like Saeko said), they were re-inventing the business.

Yes Los Barricas vs. DOA is lame. So is Trevor and Murdock vs. Cryme time. I am just looking at the best that 97-99 had to offer, which I think blows the best of today's crap we watch now out of the water. The ratings from that time period compared to now (98-99) prove my point as well.

I mean look at the top angles on tv right now Cena and his dad vs. Orton? Hornswaggle? The Great f'n Khali? I would rather watch doa matches for 24 straight hours than watch Khali for 2 minutes.

This is a matter of personal preference. It's just hard for me to grasp that you would prefer todays writing than the late 90's.

 

[Stingray]

I just can't agree with that. The Mr. McMahon character was & is lame. The result of poor planning, by WWE's own admission, and one they could have & should have done away with ages ago. DX is tired, and got tired to me after a few months. Like the nWo, great in the short term, but there's no longevity. That's the problem I had with the Rock, as well...too much mouth, not enough in ring. (not that either of the principle DX guys have that particular in-ring problem.)

And again, you have too look at the whole picture. HHH, Austin, Angle, etc....the company had time to build these guys into something before they were expected to carry the company. You can't say that about Cena, Orton, Khali, etc. Half of them became champions because the guy before them got hurt or left, and the handful of people the company DID build well or had time to build well can't hold the title because everyone then opts to complain about that. HHH, for example...solid on the mic & in ring, probably the most capable guy they've got on Raw, but half the crowd would cry neoptism as soon as he got a title shot. Seriously.

I'm not saying the present day is any better than it was then, but I can't agree that it's any worse either. Sure, you had Rock/Austin -- about 8000 times over. No match is good enough to see as many times as we had to sit through that one. Or Austin/Helmsley, HHH/Rock, etc. The problem they had then is one that --thank god -- we don't see as much now: (the current Cena/Orton rivalry notwithstanding) the exact same match week in & week out for 4 fucking months. Or am I the only one that remembers Angle/Big Show/Lesnar back in '99/00?

As far as comparing the top angles now to then, how's this:
Cenas v. Orton = Casket Riding Big Show v. Big Boss Man
Hornswaggle = Al Snow's one-eyed Moose head, Pierre v. Head in a Hardcore match
Great Khali = The Ministry of Darkness (both being equal amounts of abnormally large and obsessively lame)

It's the same shit, just different names & brands.

 

[nekkid]

I see what you are saying in a sense. Watching any wrestler over and over you can almost predict what moves they will use in situations and what they will say in promo situations. Any wrestler, stable or storyline will get tired.

See a lot of what was lame in that list you wroye about the late 90's was funny to me. The big show riding the casket was hilarious. It was so absurd that I am still not sure if that segment was supposed to be serious or comical. Head in a hardcore match at least would garner a chuckle. The ministry just plain sucked, I agree.

I guess when it comes down to it, the original discussion was the tv writing. The biggest thing that I remember was during the late 90's you HAD to see RAW. It was must see tv week in and week out. Storylines advanced quickly, the storylines were planned out well in advance and usually had a good payoff. Now, it was not like this all the time, but for a good 2-3 year run in my opinion RAW was f'n awesome, 4-5 star shows almost week after week.

Sadly, things got old quickly. LIke you said, how many times can Sting fall from the rafters, how many times can HHH say suck it, how many times can Austin stun Mcmahon? But before it got old and was still fresh I thik it was gold.

While they are doing good things in todays shows, I just don't get that same feeling os 'I can't wait to see what they do next' when I watch now and really haven't felt it for many years. I hope it does change and soon. Does that make sense?

 

[nekkid]

Forgot one thing are you saying that the big show riding the casket was a top angle at one time? Comparable to Cena/Orton, which is the #1 angle? c'mon...

 

[saeko nogami]

the boring part is also due to eric bischoff giving ppv matches for free,wwe had to follow suit that's why you had hhh/rock/austin every week.They should have kept the big matches for ppv instead of giving them for free.

 

[-KA-]

I'm sorry to interrupt your little argument. But I have a question. Who was that woman who attacked Torrie Wilson last night on Smackdown?

 

[phynix]

WWE development diva Krissy Vaine (Kristin Eubanks) made her WWE TV debut at the Smackdown/ECW tapings in Indianapolis. She did a run in during a Torrie Wilson-Victoria match. Vaine had recently been training with the WWE developmental group in Tampa.

 

[Zinista]

I wish they could go back to the old days of the monday night wars..

 

[bobobill]

I wish they could go back to the old days of the monday night wars..

Maybe if TNA got their shit together we might have something close to it.

 

[-KA-]

Yea, If they had better story lines then maybe, cuz let's face it...they have better matches and wrestling talent, but they don't have enough charismatic superstars.

 

[acme]

At first, TNA looked like an alternative to WWE, but for some time they look like they don't make any progress at all. Nothinhg new, nothing spectacular.
their good luck is that in WWE mr McMahon has a lot of very, but very stupid ideeas.

 

[phynix]

TNa have their Prime time slit and a two hour show but they just can't compair they dont have mike skilled talent that WWE does! As far as the glory days well I started watching in late 99 so as far as glory for me that would 2000 as you had the McMahon-Helmsley Era, then one great wrestlemania after another (16-20 were great, then Cena arrived!) and then the invasion which I enjoyed due to the faces that I had seen during my short lived "WCW fan" stage (shudder!)

Now wether you compair Kali to the big show or Cena to the Rock it doesn't matter who has what belt or wins what match to get where ever, they are the current wrestlers if 5 years or so new ones wil be there to fill their places. Vince can't live forever either what will wrestling become when he is no longer here to add creative jucies or to fuck it up big time.

As for WWE today well it has its highs and lows I still miss tag team matches that use to steal the show at many PPV's (Armaggedon last year brought back many memories of TLC from 2000!) But as with everything you have to except change and roll with them otherwise you get left behind. Life must change or it becomes boring.

 

[nekkid]

I agree Phynix. I don't think that TNA has the amount of highly talented mic and in-ring workers that WWE does. I do think they have a small pool of talent that is as good as anyone in the 'E, like Angle, Christian, AJ, Samoa Joe, and maybe Stinger. Some people would put Jeff JArrett in there, I just was never a fan. WWE probably has 10 times the amount of top tier talent that that TNA has.

However, I do remember thinking that WCW was never going to make it because all their wrestlers were so old. (Wheel Chair Wrestling) BUt Bischoff, took an idea and ran with it. That idea (NWO) almost singlehandedly put the WWE into an early grave. Could ths happen with TNA? I hope so, we'll see.

 

[Stingray]

okay...going down the list here, since I couldn't respond over the weekend.

--Yeah, the Raw-was-must-see thing makes sense. Situations were different then, being a singular brand, half the roster size, and reasonably stable competition...none of which holds true now...which is good & bad, depending on exactly what yer talkin' about.

--Show/Bossman was a top angle at the time. Hard to believe in hindsight, but that doesn't make it any less true. It was the feud they chose to cement Show as the WWE champion after he won the gold the first time, so I'd say that qualifies as the #1 or 2 angle at the time. Granted, it was funnier than the Cena's dad thing, but there were a lot of moments in there -- prior to Show's casket-surfing, of course -- that made it seem like it was originally intended to be serious. Kinda like the Katie Vick angle with Kane & HHH. And really...what about the Orton-kicked-Cena's Dad angle isn't utterly ridiculous?

--Zini, good to see you're still alive, amigo. lol

--TNA getting their game together would be great...but I don't think they'll be taken seriously in the way WCW was until they do any combination of the following:

1. get a directly competitive timeslot -- go against ECW, Smackdown or Raw.

2. Stop relying so heavily on pre-established stars like Angle, the Stieners, the Dudleys, and Sting, and put the company in the hands of their own capable talent like Christopher Daniels, Abyss, Samoa Joe, and AJ Styles.

3. Ditch the novelty ring and return to a standard ring. Novelty is great, but as we've seen with experiments like the 6-man tag titles, Cruiserweight Tag Titles, Hardcore titles, old ECW, and the Raw Bowl, it's not exactly good for longevity.

4. Stop dropping angles at seemingly random moments. I could rattle off examples until monkeys flew outta my ass here, but I'll save us all the time and effort by saying it's happened a LOT.

5. Find some stability in their respective divisions. The emphasis on the tag division & X-division shifts every few months, so that half the time one group is almost entirely in the background. It hurts the credibility of the athletes and the titles, and nobody benefits from it.

6. Convince the world they aren't WCW-lite. They bring in all these "names" and their original talent gets lost in the shuffle. WCW did almost the same thing, and it drove at least 6 of their bigger "original" stars out of the company (Show, Jericho, Guerrero, Benoit, Melenko, and Saturn.) Most of the guys they picked up from ECW -- exception of Mike Awesome & Lance Storm-- bailed and went back to ECW, and rumors were that Kidman & a handful of others were trying to get out of their contracts before the company folded anyhow. If TNA isn't careful, their going to lose the originals they have and suffer a similar fate.

--NwO...almost did in WWE, definately did in WCW.

 

[-KA-]

The following is from PWInsider.com:

Details are still sketchy but the word coming from backstage at the Raw taping is that WWE champion John Cena is believed to have suffered a torn right pectoral muscle during his main event match against Ken Kennedy. He is tentatively scheduled to undergo a MRI tomorrow to examine the severity of the injury. I don't have to tell anyone reading this what a major blow this would be to the entire company if Cena needs to be out for any extended period of time.

The injury appeared to happen during a botched hiptoss on Kennedy that ended awkwardly with Kennedy landing atop Cena. Cena then nailed an armdrag. The two ended up in the corner, which led to a clean break. Cena backed up to the opposite corner and was obviously favoring his arm immediately. Cena gutted through the match and post-bout angle with Randy Orton, where he was laid out following a RKO on the announcer's table.

Cena is scheduled to main event the No Mercy PPV this Sunday in Chicago, Illinois against Orton in a Last Man Standing Man.

 

[Stingray]

There's a problem. The WWE's dissatisfaction with Orton over the last year or two isn't exactly a secret. He's torn up hotel rooms and had at least 3 publically acknowledge issues with the WWE's Wellness Program. His name's been brought up publically in connection with the whole steroid scandal as well, and he's been suspended once this year from tv, and lost pay for his appearances another time. Not exactly the ideal guy to give the title to, considering the issues he's had with the company.

Then there's Cena, whom half the fans hate and the other half love, nursing an injury that -- if last night's match is any indication -- severely limits his moveset, including the FU & STFU. Hard to leave the title on him if he's got that sort of injury.

It's pretty sad, really, when the title picture is unpredictable not because of good story, but because of the stuff that's happening beyond the ring.

 

[nekkid]

Hahaha. Orton's like a Rock star, possibly brugs and alcohol violations, destroying hotel rooms.

I think it' sfunny how the PWI calls Cena getting hurt as a major blow. That would be the best thing to happen. A torn pec however is osmething that is painful but can be played on. I remember many football players playing through the pain of a torn pec. I hop Cena is too pussy to wrestle with a torn pec for a long period of time.

Watching Raw last night I thought that we should start a campaign for people in the Audience to start holding signs that say simply:

We've
Cena
'Nuff!

What do you think?


Anymore news on the Jericho stuff?

 

[phynix]

From what I've heard Jericho will NOT be returning at No mercy apparently they want to drag it out as long as possible??? WHY?

Cena Injured...huh there is a god! Bye mate don't rush back yeah!

I wonder just who is worthy of have that belt around their waist? I mean I'd love to see Orton get it but he does have his personal demons that have stopped him many times in the past! Oh God No Please not Khali not again!

Oh fuck it give it HHH at least he deserves it and us fans love him, well I do!

 

[phynix]

CENA STRIPPED OF TITLE

I'm going to say this slowly: CENA STRIPPED OF WWE CHAMPIONSHIP

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. ? WWE Champion John Cena has suffered a complete tear of his right pectoral tendon and is heading into surgery, according to noted orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews. Because of the seriousness of the injury, WWE officials will not allow Cena to compete this Sunday at No Mercy, and he will have no choice but to surrender the title.

Dr. Andrews said Cena could miss between six and eight months of action. Cena was injured during his match Monday night on Raw with Mr. Kennedy. Before visiting Dr. Andrews, Cena had said, ?No matter how serious, the injury, one way or another I?ll be ready to compete on Sunday.?

But despite Cena?s vow, WWE officials will not allow him to compete at No Mercy. Therefore, he must surrender the WWE Championship.

WWE officials vow that there will be a WWE Championship Match this Sunday at No Mercy and a new WWE Champion will be crowned.